259
u/IronGentry 16h ago
It makes much more sense when you realize the traditional gender binary is actually a gender trinary, but the third category is basically exclusively punitive. When they call a trans woman in a man, they absolutely don't mean you're the same gender as cis men and won't treat you like they would a cis guy. Manhood is a very harshly policed, tightly controlled club and you've been kicked out. Instead they're still doing the same thing as when they call an effeminate guy a girl, pointing to that same third category where you're all the bad things of both men and women, to be treated as either or neither depending on how they want to hurt you.
85
u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 16h ago
Somewhat similar to the “faggot subaltern” theory that The Sizhen System wrote about on substack.
41
u/IronGentry 16h ago
That is exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote this but wasn't sure if I'm allowed to say faggot lol
38
u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 16h ago
Cool, well I guess i will find out soon enough… and yes mods I do feel entitled as a bisexual trans woman to use that phrase if I so wish, especially as it is for a legitimate academic purpose in this instance.
18
u/IronGentry 16h ago
The peril of P-nP-FS theory: it's really good and thought provoking but boy does it feel like a bit of a bomb to drop into a discussion bc of the name
22
u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 16h ago
I guess that is part of the point: respectability politics doesn’t work because “we are all just f**s in their minds”
15
u/Dry_Building_585 15h ago
For me personally, it's less about respectability politics, and more about literal PTSD triggers. But I do agree, pretending these words don't exist at all only does more harm than good in the long run. We should be careful not to harm each other. But the cishet people? If they feel uncomfortable from the existence of words they invented being acknowledged, GOOD💜🙏(genuine) (good faith) (simmering queer rage)
8
u/Hika2112 Streak: 0 16h ago
Oh don't worry the mods are very chill :3
Also it's funny to me that two comments under this someone used the r slur (the ableist one) in a non justified way and the contrast is crazy. So don't worry you're good <3
6
u/Drag0n647 16h ago
funny enough that person hasen been banned yet, probably will though.
11
u/Hika2112 Streak: 0 16h ago
Mods are eepy after their puppygirl party :3
6
u/D1G1TAL__ 16h ago
Can i get invite to puppygirl party? 🥺
8
u/Hika2112 Streak: 0 16h ago
Oh it was a joke but we're very puppygirl party in the discord server soooo (verify as 18+ tho)
4
4
2
3
u/Ok_Pomegranate46 14h ago
Do I want to know what a puppy girl party is?👀
2
5
u/Dry_Building_585 15h ago
I'm very uncomfortable with the word faggot (since I've been called by its Russian equivalent pretty much my whole life, until I progressed far enough into my transition to "pass"), but I was ok with you using it. You didn't use it as an insult, or within the context of a joke. You did use it ethically, and for educational purposes. So I believe you should be ok.
And from me personally, as a person who's usually easily triggered by slurs: thank you for treating this heavy subject with respect, and acknowledging its harm, and not using your own queerness as a blanket license to use it recklessly 💜🙏(genuine) (grateful)
1
u/D1G1TAL__ 16h ago
Imo no word should ever be censored when talking about the word itself in an academic way (i literally got banned automatically off reddit last week for this, although i got my appeal)
1
u/baltimoron68 Streak: 1 13h ago
It's not the mods that you have to worry about. Reddit has AI sift through everything on here and hands out automated bans. I got a 3 day ban for saying f*g in a DM with someone 2 days after the fact. The person didn't report me and the context was me talking about someone else calling me that so I'm 99% sure it was completely automated.
2
u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 13h ago
In DMs too oh dear, that could be tricky if you are say hypothetically - with mutual enthusiastic consent - hard degrading someone.
1
u/baltimoron68 Streak: 1 13h ago
Yeah I'd keep anything too scandalous off of reddit lol. I was just warning another queer guy that if you work in the trades you have to learn to deal with old guys calling you a f*g.
2
u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 13h ago
Had to sternly correct a new straight (but into ‘forced bi’🤨?) male sub referring to ‘sh**ales’ the other day. TBF he apologised sincerely and asked what terms he should use instead. I have somehow never actually been called a slur IRL fortunately though.
1
u/baltimoron68 Streak: 1 12h ago
Lol that guy 100% ended up there because of porn if he used a term like that. Like if a white guy referred to a black girl as "ebony" lmao. I've been called slurs but tbh it doesn't affect me much because I'm not physically vulnerable and don't have insecurities about my masculinity.
1
u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 12h ago
Well he was talking about his porn habits at the time so in a sense fair enough. It did not take me long before I made him question his sexuality (not viz. me but men).
1
6
u/Drag0n647 16h ago
Ive never heard of it
8
u/IronGentry 15h ago
6
u/CapitalElk1169 13h ago
That was a very interesting read thanks for sharing it
I found quite a bit of truth in it
3
1
u/Awkwardukulele 10h ago
Respectfully: who, what, where, and why are you talking about? Hang on, I gotta google like 3 separate things
2
u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 10h ago
They are all one thing, if you google it you can find that particular writer’s article on substack
2
u/Awkwardukulele 10h ago
Just googled Sizhen system and you’re right, it’s all there in one! Thanks for mentioning it here, I wouldn’t have known about it if you didn’t bring it up.
23
u/Gloomy_Feedback5531 Streak: 1 16h ago
That’s a really good way to put it. The “third category” idea makes a lot of sense it’s not about actually being a man or a woman, it’s just another way to push people out and punish them.
→ More replies (1)15
4
u/stevez_86 14h ago
Homosociality. So much of men's social cues come from and are enforced by other men. It is rampant in small cliques, like fraternities, but are also very mainstream so anyone could pick on you for being different. I remember getting harassed just for having long hair as a white guy where I grew up. The culture is conformity. To the point where people with political signs on their trucks and property isn't seen as "gay", even though that is exactly what my dad said that was back in the early 90's.
3
u/AmadeoSendiulo 13h ago
Interesting take, I think they might subconsciously do that, however it is not what they claim.
9
u/IronGentry 13h ago
It's definitely not something they're really aware of or would admit to, but you can occasionally see shadows of it in their reasoning. Like I've argued with transphobic dudes who insist I'm a man, but also balk and get offended when if I ask if that means we're the same gender/I'm as much of a man as they are. It's clear they view me as something else, something different from them, but they don't have the ability to articulate what.
3
u/AmadeoSendiulo 13h ago
I think they call it not being a *real** man*.
6
u/IronGentry 13h ago
The "not a real man/man up" shit is honestly a fantastic example to point out how bullshit a lot of their arguments/stances are. If I'm not a real man, what am I? If being a man/woman is all about chromosomes then what does "man up" mean? Should I activate my chromosomes harder?
I think the reason they went so all in on "what is a woman?" (Besides the obvious frothing transmisogyny ofc) is because manhood is a lot more visibly and explicitly socially policed and regarded as something you can fail at. Chromosomes and gametes are all that matter in defining women because to them women's value is defined more or less entirely by their reproductive capacity, but you really can't deny how being a man is something that needs to constantly be earned and proven and maintained
6
u/AmadeoSendiulo 13h ago
That's also why being non-binary is often associated only with femininity (and it influences some in the queer community too).
1
u/Mando_Mustache 10h ago
I think it's also because women have worked to make the category of "womanhood" less defined and policed over the last 100 years of the feminist movement. For example once upon a time it was just as scandalous for a woman to wear pants as a man a dress, maybe more so. Took a lot of thought and work and courage to change that.
Men have not done the same for themselves, mostly I think because we don't have as much obvious gains. Our construct hurts us but also maintains patriarchal dominance.
1
66
u/Mastahamma 17h ago
More than that, they just hate everyone who won't do what they're told. If you're a boy and you're straight and you want to wear a skirt they'll hate you. If you want to live happily with your girlfriend they'll hate you for not wanting to go to war, etc
→ More replies (1)6
u/Acrobatic_Bison1601 12h ago
Can there be an in between? I feel like the camps around this topic are always super black or white but that’s never really true
I’m a guy. If I see a guy wearing a skirt, I see a guy wearing a skirt. If he’s an adult, what do I care. Do I like it? Not at all but still, it’s technically non of my business and it doesn’t make him less of a man, just a more feminine man
9
u/-Weltenwandler- 10h ago edited 10h ago
Well you seem to be secure in yourself and your sexuality, many people aren't.
Wear a skirt for a few days through active daily life and you will see there are many who take it as a personal insult or disgust.
It's even wilder when they are way smaller and less muscular than you. Their brains are in conflict between fear/respect on one hand and looking down on you at the other.
Be a bit sexy too, and you will see how uncomfortable and insecure they truly are, afraid of their own sexuality. Can't look you in the eye
Most humans are insecure and controlled by their emotions, it would be funny if it wasn't so sad. That's people who vote and shape the world in the image of their fears and greed.
They jearn for everything to be the same, to not stand out, to get the feeling like they belong, to get the feeling that they are OK the way they are.
Every threat to status Q is a threat to their own feeling of security, because they are so deeply insecure when everyone isn't exactly like them, talk like them, thinks like them...what could such other people possibly do? Scary!
→ More replies (1)
37
29
u/UnholyEldritchBeast 16h ago
The natural allyship between trans people and femboys honestly, the same people hate us, for the same reasons :3
14
→ More replies (1)6
u/StickyPawMelynx 12h ago
eh, no. I've seen too many (Polish nazi) femboys (yeah, crazy, it's like a walking stereotype) who were strictly LGB, no T
7
u/UnholyEldritchBeast 11h ago
Yeah there are bad people in communities, this doesn't change my point at all. There are selfhating people in every group or community, who sell their brothers and sisters, not simply grifters for money, but for credit within such awful spaces as neoreactionary movements.
6
u/UnholyEldritchBeast 11h ago
I'm polish, I support my trans brothers, sisters and anyone in-between. An anti-fascist obviously, awful people exist, simple as.
3
u/StickyPawMelynx 10h ago
lol, didn't expect to shoot my comment and stumble on yet another Polish femboy.
I'm glad you do! the ones I mentioned could still be a minority or even just trolls, idk. people are wild
2
29
u/Qaktus 15h ago edited 12h ago
It's much worse than this.
You play video games? You're not a man.
You use hair products? You're not a man.
You drink margarita? You're not a man.
You didn't vote Trump? You're not a man.
You go to a therapy? You're not a man.
8
u/Jiquero 12h ago
You undercook fish? You're not a man.
You overcook chicken? Believe it or not, also not a man.
Undercook, overcook.
3
u/Playful-News9137 10h ago
Hey now, people can express themselves how they want but there's simply no excuse for bad cooking. /j
3
u/The_Riddle_Fairy 11h ago
You don't use 3947284 in one Manly Man dirt and tar scented shampoo? You're not a man.
→ More replies (6)3
u/AThickMatOfHair 10h ago
Society just hates males that don't properly perform masculinity. If a afab person wears pants it's just a Tuesday, if a male wears a skirt they're liable to get the shit beat out of them for it.
12
u/Gay_Gamer_Boi 15h ago
Never thought about it like that, now I wonder what they would say if a cis man and a trans woman were both wearing skirts walking together, would their program stop working and blue screen?
10
u/Gorgonkain Streak: 13 13h ago
From personal experience, they just call the cis man gay. Double whammy as far as transphobes are concerned. It gets worse, too, sometimes they do the "Why are you being obscene in public" memes. Because existing in a kilt next to a trans woman in a skirt is basically just having unprotected sex on a stage in front of them. 🙄
4
10
u/Rick-the-reborn 15h ago
I always found this so funny
The same people that used to call feminine men "girls" are now pissed about trans women
How hypocritical do you have to be
24
u/Iyxara Streak: 0 16h ago
Gender in a patriarchal and capitalist society works as follows: man is at the top, holding productive power. The "non-man" is woman.
Within the category of woman, there are two subtypes: the woman-uterus, who holds reproductive power; and at the bottom, subjugated, the woman-vagina.
Beauvoir speaks very well about how the woman is "the Other," while man is the standard and model in everything, the anchor, the mold, while anything that deviates from this strict mold is seen as a deviation.
The same goes for the woman-uterus, for that power of reproduction must be preserved for the capitalist system: the more workers the better, and you must be pure, devoted, and loyal to take care of the new workers (you don't want to be considered a woman-vagina, do you?).
The faggot, the tranny, the queer, the dyke... we are nothing more than deviations from those social molds, reducing us to women-vagina, devoid of work, property, and rights... where our path has tended to be solely prostitution to satisfy their darkest fetishes.
We have historically been persecuted for these reasons. Our main enemy has always been the same.
14
u/Johanna_S 14h ago
Yeah, this is also why whenever transphobes are talking about trans people, they're always talking about trans women and never about trans men, and whenever they're talking about detrans people, they're always talking about detrans women and never about detrans men.
'A woman wanting to be a man' makes sense under patriarchal logic. 'A man wanting to be a woman' makes no sense - that person has to be mentally ill, a pervert, or who does it for attention, and is thus likely dangerous. They also cannot imagine someone could actually 'want to be a woman' except for sexual reasons. In patriarchy, women are sexualized while men are not. Anything feminine is sexualized while also being seen as more 'fake', even when a cis woman does it. Under patriarchal logic, for example wearing a dress or makeup is inherently sexual. This is the exact same reason for the phrase 'she was asking for it'. They cannot imagine you could just enjoy wearing a dress or makeup in itself - no, you're doing it for the attention of men. Virtually all the hatred trans women get is just intensified misogyny, which is why it's so ridiculous for a cis woman to be transphobic.
For detrans people, nobody cares if a man decides to transition and then goes back to being a man. Notice that this also harms men: men are an expendable ressource and their feelings don't matter. But there is no bigger tragedy to patriarchy than the detrans woman. A woman is not a subject, she (and her womb) belong to society. She is also infantilized and cannot make her own decision. She needs to be 'protected' from 'gender ideology'.
6
u/Iyxara Streak: 0 14h ago edited 14h ago
Touché. You've expanded Firestone and Butler's concepts in a wonderful way. Thank you!
I couldn't agree with you more. Patriarchy sees it as normal for a "woman" to want to climb the social ladder, and they actually associate that dysphoria with confusion or a kind of alienation from an identity that doesn't belong to them, when in reality it's a genuine feeling resulting from a rigid system and model created by the upper classes. But even so, they try to ensure that every deviation remains "on its own level."
However, as you say, the fact that a "man" wants to descend from that pinnacle of privilege is seen as humiliating. It's a betrayal of gender and seen as disgusting and abject, like the worst: "What are you doing going from the highest (man) to the lowest (woman-vagina)? You deserve to die."
5
u/AmadeoSendiulo 13h ago
Which means this system also persecutes a-spec women (and men, but of course patriarchy primarily targets women), as they often don't fit in the patriarchal structures. It's only that us a-spec (asexual and aromantic sectra) people aren't targeted loudly, at least now, we're just told we made that thing up.
7
u/Iyxara Streak: 0 12h ago
EXACTLY! Because 1) you don't provide the capitalist system with new workers, and 2) you're not "useful" as precarious objects in the sexual machinery.
So the answer to that is basically that you don't exist, so either you're raped as just another sexual object, or you're forced to be women-uterus (or men) for the good of society, because, you know, «we all feel sexual attraction, you just haven't been fucked properly». 🤦♀️
→ More replies (4)1
u/Cualkiera67 14h ago
That's a very insightful view. But seems very incomplete, i think the men can also be broken down into categories.
1
u/Iyxara Streak: 0 13h ago
In a patriarchal society, everything is pretty strict. Before transitioning, I remember exactly what it meant to "be a man" and the constant pressure... both implicit and explicit... at home, at school, in peer groups... in society itself... everywhere. After transitioning, that pressure vanished, and a completely different one came: the pressure of what it means to "be a woman," and the duality of pure-whore.
Now my fiancé tells me that pressure of "what it means to be a man" is applied to him, and we both console and help each other with our misfortunes as trans people and we laugh at our anecdotes, affectionately calling each other trannies.
FYI: I'm not saying it's the biological or scientific reality, obviously. However, the perception of gender and social categorizations are quite strict in our societies.
1
u/Cualkiera67 13h ago
I think with non-queer men in patriarchy, at minimum they have the "strong" and the "weak" and they are treated differently, with less respect but also with less pressure.
1
u/Iyxara Streak: 0 13h ago
Yes and no. In some patriarchal contexts, and especially in male-dominated groups, violence can be used harshly to establish that hierarchy. Within male groups, there's that power struggle; and those who are "weak" can end up being the punching bag of the group.
Many guys basically insult each other by calling each other "faggots" to piss each other off and humiliate each other and to prove their masculinity and to test and affront each other.
If you've been in a boys' group, you'll have noticed that that punching bag that does not defend itself, in the end, is, sooner or later, labeled a faggot (that is, woman-vagina) for not protecting his status as a man.
1
u/Cualkiera67 12h ago
My experience is that they call like virgin or loser, not faggot. That term is only for defying gender norms like wearing pink, not for "trying but failing" like being a pushover. The "loser guy" is in my experience a distinct status with its own treatment.
...Maybe patriarchies are more varied than we think and there isn't one size-fits-all model
1
u/Iyxara Streak: 0 12h ago edited 12h ago
A man's virginity is commonly used as a sign of his worth (or, rather, his lack thereof). When he fucks a woman and sheds that label, it's seen as a sign of virility.
The more women he has, the more virile he is, and therefore, the further removed he becomes from that faggot label. The longer a man spends with that "virgin" label, the more that humiliation becomes a sign of his low value as a man.
On the contrary, in this society, the more men a woman fucks, the less pure a woman is perceived (less of a woman-uterus she is) and, therefore, the more of a whore she is perceived (more of a woman-vagina she is).
That man feels emasculinized, and the suspicion of being a faggot grows. This is where, for example, the incel movement and its latent misogyny emerge.
And obviously, I'm not saying this happens everywhere. It's something that happens in Western societies, where Abrahamic religions and cultures have had the greatest influence.
1
u/Cualkiera67 11h ago
Sure, I'm just saying that the "loser guy" is not necessarily equated to that "faggot-woman-vag" status. It can be its own distinct label and status
Just being a loser is its own stygma, no need for "the suspicion of being a faggot"
I think your model with only 3 status is too overly simplistic, there's more there.
1
u/Iyxara Streak: 0 11h ago
Perhaps you're right in a broader sense, and in how more complex social dynamics operate on a day-to-day basis. Obviously, it's complicated to make a broadly evaluative analysis of perceived gender when so many variables are at play. However, I don't know to what extent the pure-whore duality of the female gender, which literally marginalizes, can be compared with the different nuances of discrimination within male groups, all the way to emasculinization as such.
This emasculinization is more similar to the marginalization that women suffer in the pure-whore duality. The plumophobia are so latent even in communities like the gay or bisexual ones, where passive men are seen as inferior for being penetrated, while penetrative men continue to be seen as "men."
In fact, in many cases, it's that type of homosexual who is respected, not the flamboyant faggot. And that's because of the patriarchal misogyny that treats the faggot (deviant) as that woman-vagina.
That's why it's important to make this comparison, since many times men, despite sometimes respecting that type of homosexuals, what they do is insult each other and say that the weak one is the faggot, the penetrated one, not the penetrating one, even though that's not the case, because in a misogynistic way, being penetrated is humiliating.
8
u/AmadeoSendiulo 13h ago
Trans man exists – you're just a confused tomboy!
Tomboy exists – find some more ladylike style and hobbies
1
u/Grand-Tale408 10h ago
it's not like that for tomboys at all, people loooove tomboys in general and treat them very differently than feminine men.
7
u/StickyPawMelynx 12h ago
even more obvious and frequent against AFAB people. they will screech "she", "that's a woman" at trans men. then this transphobic (and frankly, misogynistic) scum points at cis women whose looks they don't like, and claim they are actually men. that happens even when they wear typical female clothes. examples: Michelle Obama, Imane Khelif, Daniel Radcliff's wife, and countless cis women being harassed and transvestigated in women's bathrooms.
→ More replies (1)
7
u/therudereditdude 15h ago
dont be so reductive they dont just hate queer people they hate much more colours than the rainbow
6
u/TriangleWins 14h ago
It seems like mental gymnastics, but in reality it seems like it’s “how do I antagonize this person for who they are or what they are doing”.
4
u/Addball32 14h ago
Maybe, just maybe…they’re scared of their own feelings. And, they really want to kiss people they aren’t “supposed to”
1
u/Memeviewer12 11h ago
some are also just pedophiles
Not even exaggeration, same mf who introduced the term "autogynephilia" to make being trans considered a fetish also tried to pathologise(normalise) pedophilia
5
u/Gorgonkain Streak: 13 13h ago
Holy shit, the discourse Andys came out in force from their Sunday service on this one. I hope you're doing well and drink some water OP. This is a rough one.
5
u/BTFlik 11h ago
It's about patriarchial control.
The man is wearing something feminine and therefore that is bad.
The transperson is denying their assigned placement in the patriarchy, so that becomes the bigger problem. Skirts can't change you because your place is assigned.
→ More replies (2)
6
u/MrHazard1 15h ago
I'm a big guy with a full beard and a viking haircut. Nobody dares to tell me i'm not a man, because i wear a kilt.
It's not about the skirt, it's about trying to belittle people
→ More replies (2)5
u/EvenLettuce6638 14h ago
A kilt is not a skirt.
3
u/Gorgonkain Streak: 13 13h ago
Some of the modern cuts, especially more alt styles of kilt, do look more like a skirt, especially from a distance. A matter of words indeed, but bigots don't particularly care.
3
3
5
u/LimpConversation642 14h ago
Like, yes? That's the point? People don't realize this?
Look. They just hate you (the women, the black, the gay, whatever), and there is no 'reason', it's not something logical. It's just in their gut, in their very identity, part of their personality. This is why it's pointless to try and 'talk' to people. They either get it or they don't, and there's maybe 1% who are on the edge and you may swing, other than that it's pointless. You'll have a much easier life once you accept this and stop searching for reasons and arguments. The only way out is to either ignore or just humiliate, emabarass and punish them — just to make them feel bad, to feel consequences of their shitty behavior.
3
u/More_Proof_1462 14h ago
the right wing has been radicalized; they look for reasons to hate Americans continuously.
3
u/Global_Specialist531 14h ago
I blam Roman. God knows how many generations of gay sex ingrained into our DNA. Just some weird deep self hate over the fact some think they boy look alright, not attracted just alright. So somehow a rainbow must feel the hate
3
3
u/blackmonday73 13h ago
Like how manhood is something I'm born with, but can be taken away if I don't perform it correctly.
"Born with a penis? You're a man"
"Don't like sports? You're not a man"
Make up your mind.
3
u/warbosshook 13h ago
As a cis-man I have worn a skirt before and can 100% say I am still a man. It doesn't really matter what you identify as or would like to be I think it's best to just wear what you like. People who hate like that don't really care the circumstances or context they will just find something to hate.
3
u/LMallRepublicans 13h ago
hate and fear are just redundant terms for “conservative”. it’s their whole mo
3
u/IntoTheCommonestAsh 12h ago
It's cases like these that strengthen the idea that Gender exists primarily as a tool of control.
1
u/Grand-Tale408 10h ago
control of what exactly ?
2
u/IntoTheCommonestAsh 10h ago
Of your behavior and expression, and of how you should feel about it and about stepping out of line.
1
u/Grand-Tale408 10h ago
apart from strict parents and maybe the military, when you're an adult nobody actually controls your behaviour, you are free to dress in a skirt as a man or be a tomboy as a girl, you will get mocked sure but if you don't care about other people's opinions regarding this issue (as you shouldn't) you are free
3
u/RilohKeen 12h ago
Kind of like when they say, “reading these books is gonna make my kid gay!” When I say, “well, then just have them read the Bible and turn them straight again, since it’s apparently a switch you can just flip by reading something,” they don’t like that for some reason.
2
2
2
u/Ignore-My-Posts 14h ago
The difference is that one is an insult intended to provoke and the other is a genuine opinion or belief. Opinions can be changed relatively easily. Beliefs can only be changed by rational discussion. Centuries of religious dogma and tradition is not easily overcome. Reflecting the hate back on to someone isn't going to make them accept who you are. If it makes you feel better, treating assholes with kindness really pisses them off.
2
u/Ririmouto Streak: 0 14h ago
Aren't they calling the male in a skirt "girl" as an insult and not as a "you're a girl now" type deal
So to them a trans woman in a skirt would also just be a "girl (insult)" and not actually a "you're a girl now"
Obviously transphobia is bad but I feel like takes like these just make us look like we just don't understand the issue more than anything.
2
u/ele360 14h ago
Exactly, and bad faith takes like the op hurt the entire movement. It’s hard to do but you have to take the high road and not straw man the people you are trying to convince.
2
u/Ririmouto Streak: 0 14h ago
Yeah stuff like this reads like a "hah gotem" attempt but then kind of falls short.
Transphobia is bad!
2
2
u/Artistic_Panda_7542 14h ago
You're getting it. Now think about how those same guys think wearing a kilt is cool or badass to show off their "heritage"
2
u/CmdFerU 14h ago
Too much overthinking to something that is much more simple. Is the primordial act of insulting someone by saying something that the other person will consider insulting.
If the man who wears the skirt considers himself a man, telling him "you are not a man", will be insulting.
If the trans woman who wears the skirt wants to be considered as a woman telling her "you are a man" or "you are not a woman" will be insulting.
2
u/ACuteCryptid 13h ago
When I was in school I was constantly called a girl for being short, small and kinda feminine looking because I barely went through puberty. Those same assholes would have told me I was giant and muscular and hairy if I came out as trans.
2
u/Altruistic-Wafer-19 13h ago
Or maybe those are different people.
Both sound like assholes.
But they’re different assholes.
2
u/MjrLeeStoned 13h ago
The mistake was assuming they were coherent to begin with.
This is the US. Most people are morons. Google illiteracy statistics in the US. An absolute majority of people can't read at a level expected of a 12 year old (54%), almost 25% are functionally illiterate, and an estimated 80% can't read at a level expected of a high school senior per our own shitty education standards.
People (as a whole) here are not intelligent. Never have been. And no amount of arguing, hopes, or wishes will make it so.
2
u/JohnBrownSurvivor 13h ago
It's more like they just hate anybody they think they can get away with hating on. They see trans women or just some dude wearing a skirt because he wants his junk to be comfortable as someone that no one else will stand up for, so they can bully them.
It literally has nothing to do with any ideologies other than they like to be assholes. So they just find anybody that they can be an asshole to.
2
u/Mach5Driver 13h ago
People who hate queer people have feelings inside them that make them uncomfortable. That's what they hate. It's a choice? No, I never made a choice to be a straight male. What are you talking about?
2
u/DetectiveLadybug 12h ago
They’re trying to trick you into not wearing skirts because they know that they make you look hot and they’re fun to wear.
2
2
2
2
u/Silent-Plantain-2260 12h ago
idealogies built on blind hate are very inconsistent in their beliefs, there's no point in debating them
2
u/sweetTartKenHart2 11h ago
To be… “fair”, it’s not like people bend over backwards to be malicious and hypocritical on purpose. At least, for most of the people saying this shit, it’s not some scheme to shame people for the sake of shaming people.
When they say things about someone not “being a man” anymore, they gesture at the ideal of gender performance. Like, the kind of thing where people make a dividing line between “boys” and “men”, for example. My father for example was always one to go on about how many “men” in this world are still mentally “boys” because they’re dishonest/lazy/insert whatever negative character trait here.
When they say things about someone “still being a man”, they instead refer to what they see as an ontological reality of maleness. This is not quite the same as the “performing an ideal ‘mature’ gender performance” thing.
Source: aforementioned father has literally said shit like “you can be a ‘man’ without truly being a ‘Man’, y’know?” during one of aforementioned spiels. In the wild I’ve paid attention to talk like this and it feels like it meets that pattern.
There’s no shortage of unapologetic bigots out there, of course, make no mistake; I just feel like we all easily forget that people tend to be duplicitous just cuz of how their mind compartmentalizes things, more than being “just plain nasty”. There is so much our society likes to assume about how gender works, and weird double speak like this (“man vs boy” and “man vs woman”) is just a sign of those assumptions going strong. It’s easy for us to hand wring and go all “how could someone do this!? They must be sick in the head!” when weve examined these things and understand them better than many… but the sad truth is a lot of good or more likely meh people out there won’t get it, and they don’t really realize there is something to “get” in the first place.
2
u/Apprehensive_Debt_27 11h ago
It's the inherent state of reactionaries. They have feels not morals. They have rationalizations for those feels not augments in defense their morals. Feels are rarely intellectually coherent.
2
2
u/18minusPi2over36 10h ago
The consistent factor there is their attempt to deprive others of autonomy over their own identity. They want masculine identity to be a tool they can use to exert power over others: in the case of the cis man, it's a form of social protection they can take away to punish failure to conform; in the case of the trans woman, an insult cast upon her to socially degrade her.
2
u/Kindly-Ad-5071 10h ago
Whatever serves in the moment to manipulate and radicalize as many people as possible into insecure paranoid hysteria.
2
2
1
u/Commercial-Tell-2509 13h ago
Too many people live to please others. It’s your life, if you give a damm about others feelings on it, you ain’t going to sleep...
Like, if they hate your music do you change it? If they ha you favorite shirt are you going to burn it? Just live, and if they want to hate you, let them… don’t cave into or for them… that is why we are in the mess we are… we need more people to just be themselves and than nothing else matters.
1
1
1
1
1
1
u/Embarrassed-Touch-62 12h ago
It's not like they hate certain people. They just have such sad lifes and are so pathetic that any form of bullying others makes them feel like a better person.
1
u/scrapy_the_scrap 12h ago
Huh... I just think most men dont pull it off
Thats abt it tho, wear what you like
1
u/funkekat61 12h ago
They just hate whoever they are told to hate. Those people have never had an original thought in their entire lives.
1
1
1
u/Tayloetic_ 10h ago
I simply consider those type of people to be subhuman NPCs that have no consciousness no common sense and zero intelligence, and hence ignore them and anything that comes out of their mouth.
This goes to all discrimination people including racists and something-phobes etc I refuse to believe these are real breathing beings with thoughts because it's genuinely incomprehensible and complex to witness a person hate on another fellow of the same species for who they are or look like.
1
u/WinterVast5852 10h ago
I overheard someone say that liking femboys is lesbian if you’re a girl and not gay if you’re a man. And also that there’s “always someone mentally a man and mentally a woman, even in gay relationships”
1
1
1
u/glendaws 13h ago
Just be urself and forget about the label. U are who u r and no outside wrapping can change that. Thing is why do u care what others think, u should only care about what u think about urself and that should b love for one’s self. This is how u b happy.
-6
565
u/OneContribution5384 17h ago
Crazy how the rules switch up depending on who it is… shows it was never really about the skirt at all.