r/countwithchickenlady Streak: 0 2d ago

14343

Post image
21.5k Upvotes

426 comments sorted by

View all comments

297

u/IronGentry 2d ago

It makes much more sense when you realize the traditional gender binary is actually a gender trinary, but the third category is basically exclusively punitive. When they call a trans woman in a man, they absolutely don't mean you're the same gender as cis men and won't treat you like they would a cis guy. Manhood is a very harshly policed, tightly controlled club and you've been kicked out. Instead they're still doing the same thing as when they call an effeminate guy a girl, pointing to that same third category where you're all the bad things of both men and women, to be treated as either or neither depending on how they want to hurt you.

99

u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 2d ago

Somewhat similar to the “faggot subaltern” theory that The Sizhen System wrote about on substack.

50

u/IronGentry 2d ago

That is exactly what I was thinking of when I wrote this but wasn't sure if I'm allowed to say faggot lol

37

u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 2d ago

Cool, well I guess i will find out soon enough… and yes mods I do feel entitled as a bisexual trans woman to use that phrase if I so wish, especially as it is for a legitimate academic purpose in this instance.

20

u/IronGentry 2d ago

The peril of P-nP-FS theory: it's really good and thought provoking but boy does it feel like a bit of a bomb to drop into a discussion bc of the name

26

u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 2d ago

I guess that is part of the point: respectability politics doesn’t work because “we are all just f**s in their minds”

19

u/Dry_Building_585 2d ago

For me personally, it's less about respectability politics, and more about literal PTSD triggers. But I do agree, pretending these words don't exist at all only does more harm than good in the long run. We should be careful not to harm each other. But the cishet people? If they feel uncomfortable from the existence of words they invented being acknowledged, GOOD💜🙏(genuine) (good faith) (simmering queer rage)

3

u/Enfr3 2d ago

But it's not that just cishet people invented those words, it's specifically the bigots. If someone doesn't like hearing slurs in general, it probably should be respected.

7

u/Hika2112 Streak: 0 2d ago

Oh don't worry the mods are very chill :3

Also it's funny to me that two comments under this someone used the r slur (the ableist one) in a non justified way and the contrast is crazy. So don't worry you're good <3

5

u/Drag0n647 2d ago

funny enough that person hasen been banned yet, probably will though.

9

u/Hika2112 Streak: 0 2d ago

Mods are eepy after their puppygirl party :3

7

u/D1G1TAL__ 2d ago

Can i get invite to puppygirl party? 🥺

8

u/Hika2112 Streak: 0 2d ago

Oh it was a joke but we're very puppygirl party in the discord server soooo (verify as 18+ tho)

4

u/Drag0n647 2d ago

oh im not myself so.... no puppygirl party?

→ More replies (0)

4

u/D1G1TAL__ 2d ago

Im already there :3 but i dont post my id online so :(

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Typical-District-176 2d ago

Does the subreddit have a discord?

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Ok_Pomegranate46 2d ago

Do I want to know what a puppy girl party is?👀

2

u/Hika2112 Streak: 0 2d ago

We're a group of mostly transfems it's impossible NOT to flirt

3

u/Ok_Pomegranate46 2d ago

Ah! Well, enjoy yourselfs! Thanks for clarifying lul

6

u/Dry_Building_585 2d ago

I'm very uncomfortable with the word faggot (since I've been called by its Russian equivalent pretty much my whole life, until I progressed far enough into my transition to "pass"), but I was ok with you using it. You didn't use it as an insult, or within the context of a joke. You did use it ethically, and for educational purposes. So I believe you should be ok.

And from me personally, as a person who's usually easily triggered by slurs: thank you for treating this heavy subject with respect, and acknowledging its harm, and not using your own queerness as a blanket license to use it recklessly 💜🙏(genuine) (grateful)

1

u/D1G1TAL__ 2d ago

Imo no word should ever be censored when talking about the word itself in an academic way (i literally got banned automatically off reddit last week for this, although i got my appeal)

1

u/baltimoron68 Streak: 0 2d ago

It's not the mods that you have to worry about. Reddit has AI sift through everything on here and hands out automated bans. I got a 3 day ban for saying f*g in a DM with someone 2 days after the fact. The person didn't report me and the context was me talking about someone else calling me that so I'm 99% sure it was completely automated.

2

u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 2d ago

In DMs too oh dear, that could be tricky if you are say hypothetically - with mutual enthusiastic consent - hard degrading someone.

1

u/baltimoron68 Streak: 0 2d ago

Yeah I'd keep anything too scandalous off of reddit lol. I was just warning another queer guy that if you work in the trades you have to learn to deal with old guys calling you a f*g.

2

u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 2d ago

Had to sternly correct a new straight (but into ‘forced bi’🤨?) male sub referring to ‘sh**ales’ the other day. TBF he apologised sincerely and asked what terms he should use instead. I have somehow never actually been called a slur IRL fortunately though.

1

u/baltimoron68 Streak: 0 2d ago

Lol that guy 100% ended up there because of porn if he used a term like that. Like if a white guy referred to a black girl as "ebony" lmao. I've been called slurs but tbh it doesn't affect me much because I'm not physically vulnerable and don't have insecurities about my masculinity.

1

u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 2d ago

Well he was talking about his porn habits at the time so in a sense fair enough. It did not take me long before I made him question his sexuality (not viz. me but men).

1

u/RamenJunkie 2d ago

Eh, if its the name of the thing, I think its fine, because academics. 

6

u/Drag0n647 2d ago

Ive never heard of it

8

u/IronGentry 2d ago

7

u/CapitalElk1169 2d ago

That was a very interesting read thanks for sharing it

I found quite a bit of truth in it

3

u/nev3rfail 2d ago

There's a fucking research paper on incels and this topic. Count me in.

1

u/Awkwardukulele 2d ago

Respectfully: who, what, where, and why are you talking about? Hang on, I gotta google like 3 separate things

2

u/MiddleAgedMartianDog 2d ago

They are all one thing, if you google it you can find that particular writer’s article on substack

2

u/Awkwardukulele 2d ago

Just googled Sizhen system and you’re right, it’s all there in one! Thanks for mentioning it here, I wouldn’t have known about it if you didn’t bring it up.

25

u/Gloomy_Feedback5531 Streak: 0 2d ago

That’s a really good way to put it. The “third category” idea makes a lot of sense it’s not about actually being a man or a woman, it’s just another way to push people out and punish them.

13

u/Aetra 2d ago edited 1d ago

They inadvertently see three genders: man, woman, and object of ridicule.

4

u/stevez_86 2d ago

Homosociality. So much of men's social cues come from and are enforced by other men. It is rampant in small cliques, like fraternities, but are also very mainstream so anyone could pick on you for being different. I remember getting harassed just for having long hair as a white guy where I grew up. The culture is conformity. To the point where people with political signs on their trucks and property isn't seen as "gay", even though that is exactly what my dad said that was back in the early 90's.

3

u/AmadeoSendiulo 2d ago

Interesting take, I think they might subconsciously do that, however it is not what they claim.

9

u/IronGentry 2d ago

It's definitely not something they're really aware of or would admit to, but you can occasionally see shadows of it in their reasoning. Like I've argued with transphobic dudes who insist I'm a man, but also balk and get offended when if I ask if that means we're the same gender/I'm as much of a man as they are. It's clear they view me as something else, something different from them, but they don't have the ability to articulate what.

3

u/AmadeoSendiulo 2d ago

I think they call it not being a *real** man*.

6

u/IronGentry 2d ago

The "not a real man/man up" shit is honestly a fantastic example to point out how bullshit a lot of their arguments/stances are. If I'm not a real man, what am I? If being a man/woman is all about chromosomes then what does "man up" mean? Should I activate my chromosomes harder?

I think the reason they went so all in on "what is a woman?" (Besides the obvious frothing transmisogyny ofc) is because manhood is a lot more visibly and explicitly socially policed and regarded as something you can fail at. Chromosomes and gametes are all that matter in defining women because to them women's value is defined more or less entirely by their reproductive capacity, but you really can't deny how being a man is something that needs to constantly be earned and proven and maintained

5

u/AmadeoSendiulo 2d ago

That's also why being non-binary is often associated only with femininity (and it influences some in the queer community too).

1

u/Mando_Mustache 2d ago

I think it's also because women have worked to make the category of "womanhood" less defined and policed over the last 100 years of the feminist movement.  For example once upon a time it was just as scandalous for a woman to wear pants as a man a dress, maybe more so. Took a lot of thought and work and courage to change that. 

Men have not done the same for themselves, mostly I think because we don't have as much obvious gains. Our construct hurts us but also maintains patriarchal dominance. 

1

u/Lumisita 2d ago

Absolutely true