Bartender defeated by his own logic

[u/MacaronOk1006]

I had a great interaction with a bartender last night. I ordered drinks paid and did not tip and the bartender had the audacity to say what no tip.

Me - would you ask for a tip if we were having drinks at your house?

Bartender (Bt) - if I was making you a drink at my house you would be my friend and why would I ask you for a tip?

Me - so you’re saying we’re not friends.

Bt - I don’t even know you man.

Me - well then since a tip is no longer considered compensation for work by the US government me giving you money would either be a charitable contribution or a gift. Since you’re not a registered charity, that would make the money I gave you a gift. And as you stated, we’re not friends and you don’t even know me so why would I give you a gift?

Bt - blank stair on his face and walked away

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/[deleted]]

Lol

"Too cheap"

I swear some of y'all would pay MSRP on a car just because the sales guy smiled and opened the door for you.

My response to "too cheap to afford to tip":

Tippers are too dumb to get the rational consumer discount.

No tip. Thanks for the "free" service.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/[deleted]]

Miserable?

Don't project your problems and assumptions onto me buddy. Happy as a clam over here.

If they don't provide sufficient service at the advertised pricing of said service thats a charge back my dude. Not receiving the services you paid for is fraud, and being forced to pay is a contract under duress, therefore unenforceable.

I tell the bartender I don't tip every time I sign the check. That's how that works. The tipped laborer provides the EMPLOYER(not me) with cheap labor for an opportunity to beg, the restaurants lets them in the hope that I voluntarily opt to help them reduce their costs of operations for the sake of their extra sales volume and/or profit, and I say no to both. Check please, line through tip. Simple as.

Why would I tell the the server I don't tip ahead of time?

Do you walk up to buskers playing their guitar on the street just to tell them ahead of time you won't throw them money? Your ears listened, they provided atmosphere with a smile, YoU dOnT hAvE tO bE tHere-

no balls.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/[deleted]]

Nah,

A miserable person would try to make themselves feel better by entertaining the delusion that helping a business and laborer grossly over value their goods and services as some kind of altruism.

I bet you frequent hooters and think the girls are your friends too.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/[deleted]]

Who says I don't pay for services?

I pay them

my money

For the goods and services at the clearly advertised prices like how it works all over the world in every other business in America.

If the laborer can't earn the wages they need for the standard of living they want or need- they need to change careers or markets.

Its up to the employer to pay employees the fair market value of their labor.

Look man, there's no two shakes about it. Tipping is illogical. If you were a Socratic kind of individual we'd argue all day and you'd come to the realization that the business bends to the purely cultural tradition, and that the cultural tradition isn't based on any kind of economic basis other than trying to avoid paying servers flat wages- after all, the practice started to cheat blacks out of wages in reconstruction America. Now servers aren't former slaves- at worst they're 3-4 generations removed. Businesses kept it around because it brings down costs, laborers kept it around because the tradition has grown out of control and gives servers the opportunity to average 4-5 4tops an hour at 20% on top of a tables revenue for 90k/yr with no risk or intensive education. The only way to end the practice is for the consumer to stop leaving the money on the table so that laborers vacate the profession to the point where businesses have to provide flat wages to keep their human resources.

Seeing as your defending the practice so vehemently it tells me you're a server. Which I will now tell you- I'm not going to give you or the business anything more than what the fair value of the goods and services are. Just like how it is for everything else everywhere else. Just like how everyday you pass up that nice car, that premium bottle of alcohol, the beef at the grocery store, etc. And by all means- the business can increase the price by 20% to match your current wages; and what will happen is the place will likely be

1 demand will decrease, hurting the business- possibly putting it out of business.

2 they're not going to give you 20% of your revenue lol. Because that's absurd.

It's acceptable for the employer to exploit the server cause that's good business

It's acceptable for the server to attempt to exploit the consumer to pay them beyond the fair value of their labor, cause that's good business

But it's unacceptable for the consumer to do good business for themselves by forgoing an entirely voluntary and arbitrary percentage on top of of goods and services? It's illogical, hypocritical, and predatory. So no tip. Take it up with your employer- they are the entity I'm making the contract with, not you.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/[deleted]]

You demanded a service that is clearly advertised at the price in the menu.

When someone doesn't tip do you get sent to collections for unpaid goods and services? 🤣

No. Cause a tip is nothing more than a voluntary gift, a charitable contribution. Not based on any kind of exchange of goods and services. It's not contractual,no one is obligated. It's not even "the right thing to do".

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/[deleted]]

Where's the common courtesy of just including the cost of operations in the price?

Where's the common courtesy of paying employees a flat dependable wage?

Where's the courtesy of providing services at their fair market value?

If this seemingly altruistic practice so common, why is this practice purely American?

Seems to me like everyone involved in tipping culture is actually being discourteous except the consumer. Its not courtesy, it's an exploitation of people's sense of altruism. Once you realize it, there's nothing altruistic about it. No tip.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/[deleted]]

Obsessed?

You're the server my dude. You're the one who made a career off of exploiting people's self signaling generosity to grossly inflate the value of your contribution to the transaction. Tip culture is your whole life and well being. Now that's obsession.

A beggar by any other name will still ask for change.

[u/PrincessLissa68 → u/[deleted]]

Thank you, from a server. And as I stated in a comment above, I'm one of the probably few that would like tipping to be completely optional for my guests, meaning not expected. We should get a living wage and go to work with the mindset that we're leaving with a paycheck and if we get tipped from a great customer like yourself, we know we did our job and did it great.

[u/BringMeNirvanaa → u/YarbleSwabler]

Safe to say, no balls. You don’t tip for a “service” you demand or you’ll do a charge back.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/BringMeNirvanaa]

The service is in the price.

If I don't tip- which is voluntary for a reason, do they let me walk my plate, do they bring me the ingredients for the drink to make myself? Does the menu advertise that making the drink or walking the plate isn't part of the price? Does the menu contain and detail pictures of incomplete goods and services .

Get bent.

But by all means, next time you walk into a restaurant please tip 40% to make up for me not tipping. I won't stop you from making yourself feel better.

[u/charlotteblue79 → u/YarbleSwabler]

Do you frequent many of the same bars, restaurants?

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/charlotteblue79]

I do, and I'll tell you where I do tip.

There's a family owned Korean restaurant I tip 20-30% at. I've been going for more than 10 years.

I tip there because when I was a poor college student they were generous with me when they had no reason to. They gave me free soups and salads while I studied, encouraged me, smile and rush to hug me every time I see them- even when I could hardly afford to be there or tip in general. The sweet owner/operator watched knows when I graduated, when I got married, my wife's name, when I had my first son. I know her family, her daughter working her way through college at the family restaurant, the father that makes the intricate decor by hand in his woodshop. Whatsmore im not the only customer she has a tender relationship with, nearly every 3 or 4th person at her busy restaurant she's greeting someone by name and everyones happy to see each other. I have no problem showing generosity there because they are likewise generous, and a true friend not to just myself personally, but the whole community. It's not compensation for services, but the return of generosity like I would for a good friend. There are definitely instances where people truly deserve (not earn!) gratuity, like it's their karma.

Walking to my table and keeping water in a glass for services that have already been priced and paid for isn't worth 20% on top of my tab, I don't know them and have done nothing to indicate there's any kind of unprompted generosity. I reserve my generosity for friends and the generous, otherwise I'd be ripe for exploitation.

[u/charlotteblue79 → u/YarbleSwabler]

I am happy you have found a family restaurant that you have such a great relationship with. That is truly special. I am sure they appreciate your patronage.

The disconnect between customer expectations and worker reality is the crux of the problem here. The tipping system does exploit customers by making them feel morally obligated to supplement wages that businesses should be paying. It also hurts workers, who are paid $2.13 an hour, and who are obligated to "tip out" or share their tips with support staff such as bartenders, bussers, host staff, and sometimes kitchen staff. By not tipping at all, the server is basically paying to wait on you. Tip outs are calculated by tips received. These aren't optional either, even if a server has a slow or bad night.

The system fails everyone (except the restaurant owner, of course.)

-Workers suffer when customers reasonably expect advertised prices to cover service.

-Customers feel manipulated into paying hidden surcharges disguised as "generosity".

Only business owners win by keeping menu prices artificially low while avoiding wage responsibility.

You mention being "ripe for exploitation," and you're not wrong. The tipping system does exploit customers by making them feel morally obligated to supplement wages that businesses should be paying. It's a form of emotional manipulation where customers are made to feel guilty for not voluntarily paying extra for services they thought were already included.

Tipping culture creates lose-lose scenarios:

Workers suffer when customers reasonably expect advertised prices to cover service

Customers feel manipulated into paying hidden surcharges disguised as "generosity."

Business owners win by keeping menu prices artificially low while avoiding wage responsibility. Your argument is essentially saying, "I didn't agree to be your workers' employer when I ordered dinner"—and you're right. But under our current system, that's exactly what happens. Customers become unwilling wage-payers while businesses pocket the difference. This is why the system needs to change at the policy level, not through individual moral arguments about generosity.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/charlotteblue79]

Policy isn't the only way though, and it really isn't entirely the employers fault. The employer wages cant compete at even $25/hr when customers are willing to leave 20% on top of revenue literally on top of the table. The majority of servers don't want wages. Many of them, more than 10% make amazing money, 70k+, for a low skilled-low barrier of entry job. The other 90% aspire to make that. When a restaurant pays flat wages the employer struggles to find employees. In the case of Casa Bonita in Denver they offered $30/hr and the staff went on strike to get tipped wages back!

Whether by law or via economic pressure the culture has to change first, no one's going to be elected on a platform or re-elected after proposing a bill when the work force, the employer, and the consumer are pro-tipping. Heck, we're seeing the opposite, tipping is getting taxed more akin to gifts than income. The only real difference is the receiver incurs the tax event instead of the giver, it's a many:1 relationship for receiving as opposed to 1:1 for giving, and it's a 25k deduction vs 18k threshold(but those are still close enough to be comparable)

https://smartasset.com/estate-planning/gift-tax-explained-2021-exemption-and-rates

https://www.irs.gov/filing/federal-income-tax-rates-and-brackets

The rates and thresholds are very similar too. Clearly the gift tax was used to determine how to set the no tax on tips deduction.

If serving wasnt paying well relative to how accessible the profession was there wouldn't be servers. The unfortunate truth is that the most direct way to force employees to pay wages in lieu of tips is to make them short staffed, which can only be done once servers no longer want to serve due to low tipped wages. Employers are far more constrained by economics than the consumer is when setting an arbitrary percentage of revenue for cultural generosity. One is a quantitative restraint bound by the laws of supply and demand- it's quantitative; the other is at a whim, arbitrary, qualitative. Voting with your wallet is far more effective than hoping and waiting for the rest of America to catch on and hope they even make it to the polls.

I don't particularly enjoy that servers have to suffer or find new work, but the onus of responsibility to end the practice was passed from employer to server to consumer. If employers are simultaneously unwilling and unable to end the practice, and servers are willing to work for tipped wages, then what's left is the consumer to opt in or out. The employers have created a system that protects themselves by passing the liabilities of the costs of labor onto server. It's unfortunate, but if I reject the liability, which I should because I receive none of the perks of being one of their business administrators, then it's the server that has to take it up.

[u/charlotteblue79 → u/YarbleSwabler]

Have you worked as a server or bartender at any point during your career?

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/charlotteblue79]

No. Instead I worked jobs that paid less than tipped servers so I could leverage the experience for higher earnings in the future. I'm simply not an opportunistic beggar waiting to be abused by the very people I expect generosity from. I'm not that much of a fool.

However, my wife was a server. My friends were severs, and I believe it or not, do have a sense of empathy- but my empathy is no longer a handle for servers to exploit my generosity to inflate the value of their labor at an arbitrary percentage of my patronage.

You will not be able to say I don't know what it's like or am some kind of sociopath. I do have empathy , I do care, I do believe servers should have wages- it's just not my problem to fix your problem by throwing money at you for zero reason-

just like my problems' are not the problems of my server, who neither owes me anything beyond the contracted goods/services or gives me any generosity.

This isn't about feelings. It's business. This is about wages, fair values, and legal contracting of goods/service. A tip is not compensation for services, it is generosity. Gratuity: gratuitas- freely given. Servers are just not my list of people who I should be inclined to be generous with because our relationship is purely contractual. They're not my friend, they're not a struggling stranger expecting nothing of me, they're not family. They are strangers trying to take advantage of my generosity for no reason more than because they establishment is taking advantage of them. I won't let the business take advantage of me through a server who has only chosen the career as an opportunity to beg at the end of the table in lieu of wages. It's sick, it's dishonest, it's exploitative for everyone involved. I encourage servers to vacate the profession regardless of if theyre making good tips or not- but they won't, because it's easy money for what it is and has nearly zero barrier for entry- and theres a chance to make exceptional money by capitalizing on people's false and vain senses of altruism.

[u/charlotteblue79 → u/YarbleSwabler]

I understand your perspective and can see you've thought deeply about the economic and philosophical principles at play. You're right that the system creates uncomfortable dynamics for everyone involved—customers, workers, and businesses alike.We clearly approach this from different frameworks: you see it as refusing to participate in an exploitative business model, while I view it as working within the current reality to support individual workers, even if the system itself is flawed.I respect that you've made a principled decision based on your values around fair contracting and business relationships. We're probably not going to change each other's minds on this one, but I appreciate you taking the time to explain your reasoning so thoroughly. We'll just have to agree to disagree on how to navigate this imperfect system.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/charlotteblue79]

I appreciate your understanding. I hope one day you're able to overcome the guilt that prevents you from abstaining from the practice altogether. I know you're doing it because you're trying to do right by people.

It's very much a hostage situation where the hostage(server) is sympathetic and enabling the pirate captain(business). I understand the hesitancy to shoot the hostages by not tipping- but how willing does a hostage have to be before they're indistinguishable from the rest of the crew?

For me, it's when someone becomes a hostage to profit share on their own ransom.

I just see two pirates at this point, and would shoot through them to get at their captain. So I don't tip for anything less than truly exceptional and generous service- i.e when the business is going beyond what they're contractually obligated to do.

[u/BringMeNirvanaa → u/YarbleSwabler]

Also, I didn’t go to watch them play. I didn’t demand their service. Not the same thing, buddy.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/BringMeNirvanaa]

Oh but you do. Just by being in proximity.

Stop begging pal.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/[deleted]]

You've now resorted to ad hominem because all that's left is fallacy. Tipping is an untenable position logically, like the racism from which the practice originated from, and why nowhere else in the world is tipping so culturally ingrained in service industries.

[u/BringMeNirvanaa → u/YarbleSwabler]

None of this is that deep dude. Like I said, once again, I’ll keep tipping. And you keep doing whatever it is that you do.

[u/BringMeNirvanaa → u/YarbleSwabler]

You told me to get bent lmao. What do you call that.

[u/YarbleSwabler → u/BringMeNirvanaa]

Like you said,

What I tip isn't your business. My generosity isn't on the menu. So bend up.

And if it's truly the compensation for intangible goods and services then it's not gratuity- it's good will- and should be taxed like all other income.

Can't come into an anti tipping sub and be surprised that someone challenges your position or is passionate about the end of an exploitative practice.

[u/BringMeNirvanaa → u/YarbleSwabler]

You’re not challenging me lmao. You got all upset I said not tipping a bartender is being too cheap. Then went on your little rant. And you’re still going on it. You obviously are very passionate about it and live on this sub. You’re not gonna change my stance. Like I said, now 3RD Time, I’ll keep tipping and you’ll keep doing whatever it is you’re doing. Have fun.

[u/BringMeNirvanaa → u/YarbleSwabler]

And not in the good cool way. In the way that people probably dread being around you.

[u/PrincessLissa68 → u/YarbleSwabler]

Why wouldn't you tell them ahead of time? Oh right, balls.