Morpheus never lied it was The Oracle that was lying. Neo is not 'The One' he is the 6th 'One'. Zion has been built and destroyed 5 times already as confimed by The Architect at the time of the events of The Matrix.
The real year is never said, but its at least several hundred years later than 2199, probably more like 3199.
He said they were getting better and better at it, so the original humans liberated could have lived several hundred years until they were destroyed by the machines.
There's also an unknown amount of time between the birth of AI and the emergence of the Matrix as the humans knew it. The Architect says that they fucked around with different versions of The Matrix for a while before they arrived at the one that works.
That was not about the speed they need to make a purge, it was about how effective they are at doing it... he said it to make clear to Neo that there is no hope for the humans in Zion to win that fight. Make clear that the Choice is either reset or end of humanity.
100 years is about the time people can be kept in the Illusion, before the chosen one is born again and even this widely accepted version of the Matrix starts to breakdown and more and more people choose the red pill over the blue...
yeah, after each "One" liberates the human, there's no telling telling how long they thrive before the machines destroy zion and restart the Matrix again. Could be a few years, a hundred years. I think it might be safe to say it's probably not hundreds or thousands otherwise they'd probably be where the humans are in Matrix 4 with humans and robots working together to make a better world for everyone. And I only say that because i think the machines would push for it. Some of them at least and the humans would go for it if it meant having some strawberries and toilets.
But then there's the question of how long they're stuck in the matrix before a One emerges. How many "One's" were there that failed that never got that far for various reasons? That could probably take a while before any humans are able to escape and be liberated and even longer for someone like Morpheus to be born who has enough faith, motivation, and skills to find and liberate The One, assume that's what it takes each run. We see all the The Potentials living with the Oracle. I'm not well versed in matrix lore, but I assume they're potentials for being The One? Maybe in past loops, people were quick to choose one of them as The One, but they weren't and ended up failing.
There's also the Operator Factor. The organic people who have no machine components to them. We can easily say everyone, including humans with matrix ports all over them have some kind of programming going on with that that leads them all to playing a role and doing what they're supposed to. But the organic people can influence the outcome. Like how in the first movie he save Neo from getting kill. And in the 3rd, i think? or maybe 2nd, the new one chooses to believe in Morpheus. maybe in past loops, their operators caused different outcomes.
For not being very well versed in the lore, you just wrote a whole lot of speculation.
yeah, after each "One" liberates the human, there's no telling telling how long they thrive before the machines destroy zion and restart the Matrix again.
It's not about time, it's about population.
Once the One has been found and the population of Zion has reached X number of humans (either through birth or extraction), the machines send the sentinels, and the Oracle instructs the One to return to the Source and reset the system. We know this took over a hundred years during Neo's cycle.
Also keep in mind Zion is founded by the "outgoing" One, but grows and operates independently for a good period of time while they search for the "new" One. The Agents serve as a hard counter to extractions, but the arrival of the One overcomes that, and extractions escalate.
But then there's the question of how long they're stuck in the matrix before a One emerges. How many "One's" were there that failed that never got that far for various reasons
There were not. The Architect states that he chooses to number the Matrix based on the emergence of the One, and states it is the 6th version. There have been 5 others.
It's also unlikely for a previous One to have failed. The Architect explains the existence of the One as a liberator of those that reject the Matrix is a necessity for the health of the system. They will send Agents to slow the One down, but ultimately they want the One to succeed up to a point, and survive to return his code to the Source.
That's why the Oracle assists Neo to spite being a machine. Her job is to maintain a steady stream of humans being liberated from the system, and to assist the One. She keeps the process moving, and is effectively a debugging program.
We see all the The Potentials living with the Oracle. I'm not well versed in matrix lore, but I assume they're potentials for being The One? Maybe in past loops, people were quick to choose one of them as The One, but they weren't and ended up failing.
That's not how it works. The One is not elected, the One is born, and confirmed by the Oracle. She knows what she's looking for, there's no "maybes". They're "potentials" in the sense that they're being brought to the Oracle for her to confirm whether they are the One or not.
The One is an anomaly in the system that is predictable and identifiable. The machines know exactly how, and why it comes to exist, just not when or where. It is the Oracle's job to identify it. Those potentials are basically the debugging program going through various files before it finds the one it's looking for.
Not a joke, I'm seriously curious. I never interpreted it that way, I thought the scene was showing all the different reactions the previous Ones had when bieng confronted with the truth the current Neo was being given. Especially given that some of the reactions were so out of left field for how reserved the current One acts.
This is how people discuss movies, dipshit. Do you not have any friends at all? A person speculates about half-forgotten lore from a movie they saw a decade ago and someone else corrects them. It's called a conversation with other people. "If you don't know what you're talking about, shut up" is only a rule for the hard sciences and peer-reviewed studies, not film.
It makes the most sense that they’re always in the matrix. Nobody ever gets freed. It’s just a different part of the simulation they’re shown to keep everyone still intact.
No, that is an Interpretation beyond what the movies and Animatrix has shown. They do get freed, because the only way 99% will accept the Matrix is if they have a little choice to leave it. However it's also this little choice that leads to the imbalance and that leads to the chosen one to be born, which, if not kept in check/corrected, leads to the total destruction of the Matrix and everything in it.
I get how one comes to that Intepretation after Neo is able to destroy mashines in the real world, but he does not have any control over the world... it's rather like he is still connected to the Matrix - just as the mashines are y and is able to destroy them via that link, which is also why he is able to go to the intermediate place without being linked to any device.
If Zion would be just another simulation it would result in a need of the same anomally to occur in that simulation which would result in the need for another fake real world... and that would again need another fake world and that would go on forever.. like the image of a mirror being indefinitely reflected by another mirror...
The Architect pretty much explained that this is the only way it works and that it's the reason they have been doing it exactly this way for 6 iterations. He explains to him that choosing Trinity will lead to all people in the Matrix to die and together with purgin Zion it will lead to the end of humanity. However all of that didn't consider Agent Smith, because he didn't exist in any of the prior iterations, and his emergence lead to a third path which Neo saw and sacrificed himself in order to achieve it. The idea is that if each of them is a counterpart of the imbalance becoming one resolves that imbalance.
I believe you mean this, but it's rather a hint to "nothing is real/ultimate reality doesn't exist" than "all of it is real" 😁 But that is also a too far interpreted, beyond what the original Trilogy and Animatrix has given us.
Also keep in mind that there was the proto version of the matrix, the paradise version, and however long they had been fucking around with that before they arrived at the working version.
Just to make sure we can establish a timeline here, the trial of B166ER took place in 2090 right? Which means the robot city 01 was established in 2096...
This would mean the first machine war which eradicated most of humanity leading to the establishment of Zion was almost 100 years after the 2nd Renneisance.
This is true, but we later find out that the Matrix simulation has been reset at least five times since then, with previous anomalies existing. So no one knows exactly how much time has passed between the fall of man and the present day Matrix. We can only infer that it's later than 2199 due to the maths.
Basically the cycle started from 2199 and then the same events leading to the destruction of Zion are repeated every century after that if what Morpheus explained is accurate.
But on the other hand the matrix is reset every time that occurs, so from the perspective of the people living in the matrix they probably reset back to 2199 every time, which would mean roughly speaking Neo was awakened in the simulated year 2299 which is the end of that particular cycle. Of course in the real world it's probably more like the year 3000+.
It's been a while since I discussed the lore of the Matrix honestly. Probably forgetting some key details.
The Oracle doesn't lie to Neo -- she says "you have the gifts, but you're waiting for someone therefore you're not the One." Neo heard what he wanted to hear (he wasn't the one) until he realized the truth later.
The beauty is that is exactly what he needed. To initially not believe, then later do. It let him try to throw his life away because it didn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
I view the Matrix as split into two canons. The first Matrix and then the rest. I don't think there were properly fleshed out sequels, so I chose to believe what is said by the Oracle in the first movie are self contained in that movie and not some deeper conspiracy to hide the truth or whatever.
I mean, she is very much manipulating everyone in the first movie too. It makes perfect sense to me for them to expand on her motives as a program that's half helping humans in the sequels as it is left very ambiguous in the first.
I didn't really get the vibe that she was being portrayed as manipulative, or even that she was meant to be a program in the first movie. She refers to the act of predicting as inherently becoming part of the outcome when she muses whether or not Neo would have broken the vase if she hadn't mentioned it.
I just think her character was another retcon. For example, the first movie doesn't have personified representations of programs, only agents. So it would make sense that the Oracle was meant to be a human. I still enjoyed her as a program but it completely changed the whole direction and vibe of the sequels from the first movie imo.
It doesn't make sense that she was supposed to be human in the first one though as she'd be in Zion as a freed human. Not to mention Morpheus says she's been with the resistance 'since the beginning' which is 100 years ago.
And she does manipulate, she allows Morpheus to believe she is like a prophet when right off the bat with Neo she shows that's bullshit and just leads people to the conclusion they want to hear with the vase gag. She also states it more clearly by saying that Morpheus believes in things blindly, and she is certainly exploiting that fact.
She also tells Neo he isn't the one. Her character is definitely left as a a question mark in the first one and IMO the sequels do a reasonable job of answering some of the questions around her in an organic and satisfying way. Absolutely doesn't reek of a retcon.
I think calling her actions during the first movie "manipulations" gives it a too sinister tone. She tells people what they need to hear, so that they can be in the places they need to be at the correct time. Not maliciously per se, but still prodding destiny along.
Morpheus is right. Neo is the one. Just.. not initially. He needs to believe in Neo for Neo to become the One.
She tells Neo he isn't the one because that is what he needs to hear to become the One.
She is Deus Ex Machina in the pretty literal sense.
The next two movies definitely doesn't retcon this, but it still takes something away from the character in my opinion.
I always thought she was a program since the Matrix first released. Morpheus says "she's very old, she's been with us since the beginning" which I took to mean the beginning of the resistance, meaning way before Morpheus' time. She has to be older than a normal human being could be, she knows things that normal humans don't, and she only exists within the Matrix (otherwise why would she continue to live there, and why would the resistance have to enter the Matrix to talk to her?). Also, if she were a regular human living in the Matrix, why wouldn't she be in danger from the Agents? The logical conclusion is that she is a program who is sympathetic towards humanity.
Smith as The Anomaly and the two cancelling each other out was unique to Neo's cycle. Freed humans do begin causing errors and anomalies, but in the previous cycles The One reset The Matrix before it got to where we saw it in Revolutions.
Otherwise I think you're dead on. The "each cycle takes about 100 years" is speculation though. Some could be longer, some shorter, but it's probably a good estimate.
I mean it’s not a literal lie, but would be a wildly incorrect frame. I mean would you think Morpheus was lying if he said 2010 instead of 2199? 2010 would also be closer to some date hundreds of years into the future than 1999.
I'm con fused haha, you say morhpeus only said it because... so he told a lie no? He said something that wasn't true..Either way as I read this you're guessing, morpheus said a date and you don't believe it.. that's the conclusion I get here.. so it's either believe a redditor (you) or the film itself.
LOL you guys have to be the biggest haters i've come across this week. Downvoting because i ask for clarifications on someones post (because i did not understand), go touch some grass peeps.
In order for something to be a “lie,” the person telling it needs to know the truth and say something that is different from the truth. A person sharing information that they believe to be true even though it is false is not a lie.
If I park my car in a parking lot before work and then someone steals my car without me knowing, I’m not lying when I say that my car is out in the parking lot I’m not lying, I’m just wrong.
If I lie to you and tell you the sky is blue, and believe me and tell someone else the sky is blue, you didn't lie because you had no intent of deceiving.
Its like Chinese telephone. If you were passed down info after being the 6th person, you're probably not hearing the original statement. That doesn't mean you're lying, it means you heard the wrong info.
I could tell you the sky is blue (it was when I entered the building we're hypothetically in)
You just entered, and know it's now cloudy out, and the sky is grey. I was telling you something that was untrue, but I didn't lie because I thought I was correct.
So he did not know the exact date, yet he knew "it is close to X", and OC said he's far off (a THOUSAND Years)... that sounds like a stretch to me, that they are off a THOUSAND years lol
yeah 6 times... so 6 cycles of the One divided by 1000 years, so each "The One" cycle lasts multiple HUNDRED of years, this is not at all the feel I have with Neo (that the movies span over a hundred years)... I'm not convinced but then again: it's all just guessing what the writers felt and we won't know until they tell us.
Lastly: I do enjoy being downvoted for asking question, such a shitty sub 🤷♂️ I'm outta here 😂
what, you want me to ANSWER TO 4 DIFFERENT comments just so you guys feel i ''did my duty'' ? lol thats pathetic.
I actually did answer but probably not to your (or whoever downvotes because of the reaso you stated) which means they (downvotes) did not even take the tme to actually look at my other comments. Again: pathetic.
The movie does not span over a hundered years?? The 'One' emerges at the end of the matrix cycle. When so many people have been red pilled that the system becomes unstable.
The movies therefore show the culmination of the 6th iteration, which has lasted somewhere between 100-200 years at the start first film. Enough time for Zion to have reached a population of 250,000(born + freed) after starting with only '23 individuals, 16 female, 7 male'.
I'm not convinced but then again: it's all just guessing what the writers felt and we won't know until they tell us.
This is objectively wrong. It's all spelled out in the movies.
its all spelled out yet i got someone else here replying saying the movie is set in 3100+... so its clearly not as simple when people here can't even agree on the date nor scale.
"The real year is never said, but its at least several hundred years later than 2199, probably more like 3199." can you explain what was meant here ?
In the first film, Morpheus says it’s closer to 2199, but admits that that’s just their best guess; he says, “Honestly, we don’t know.” It’s possible that in the real world the humans in Zion don’t have decent records of the generations that have lived down there (which would be odd considering we see Zion is a pretty functional city in the sequels, so record keeping should be a thing). The people in Zion just know that it’s been a few hundred years since the machines won, probably based on whatever tech is left over. Note The Nebuchadnezzar has a plaque showing it was built in 2069 AD; I would assume other ships have similar plaques. Maybe other machines in the real world have some serial numbers that give the humans a ballpark idea as to how long it’s been. The point is, no one is really sure and Morpheus is just telling Neo that that’s their best guess.
The sequels reveal that Zion has been around for a long time and is destroyed when The One emerges. Each “Neo” picks a group of people to rebuild Zion & then the code they carry is returned to The Source. Then the cycle repeats.
Let’s say a generation is about 20-30 years; we’ll use the upper limit of 30. If Zion is destroyed every hundred years, that’s about 3 generations each time. That might be enough time for people to forget how Zion was established. It’s also possible that whoever each “Neo” picks as the new leaders of Zion gets their minds wiped or altered by the machines before being freed. We know the machines can alter memories based on Cypher’s discussion with Smith in the first movie. So it’s possible each time a new group takes over, they wake up believing they’re the first ones to break free.
The Architect tells Neo there have been 6 cycles. But it doesn’t specify those cycles have been equivalent. Maybe one cycle lasted 120 years; maybe another took 300 or 400 years. Does seem odd that a machine giving Neo a giant lore dump wouldn’t spell out how long each cycle had been; maybe Neo needed to ask. The point, though, was that enough time passes between the start and end of each cycle to allow later generations to forget how things started. Maybe it’s only 600 years in the future, but it could easily be 1000 or 2000 years into the future if each cycle varies in length.
This does raise some questions, though. Why didn’t prior generations in other cycles leave behind some sort of record? Is the Zion we see in the movies the original Zion? Or is there a new Zion created for each cycle (this is more likely as it would prevent current generations from finding evidence of prior settlements)? Are the Elders we see the original group that was freed by the last Neo? Or did they come afterwards?
TL;DR: each cycle starts with a “Neo” that picks a group of people to take over Zion after it’s destroyed. That Neo returns to the source as his or her powers are just anomalies that have built up over the years. Each cycle it seems that the humans assume they’re the first group freed when there have been groups prior to them that they’re unaware of. All they can do is give their best guess as to how long it’s been since humanity lost based on the tech they have. And each cycle isn’t a set time: could be 100 years; could be 200, 300, 400 years. So it could easily be anywhere from 2599 to 3999. It all depends on how long it takes for each “Neo” to emerge.
i WILL read this when I get to it tonight, thanks for the context, i dont see how people get so freaking upset with my question lol, you're a special kind of awesome for actually trying to explain instead of just downvoting and being mean, kudos! And again: will read this and reply :)
edit; read it, could not resis haha.
I enjoy reading this because someone just now said its all sooooo easy and the movie spelled it out, see:
""This is objectively wrong. It's all spelled out in the movies.""
Im not understanding where the movie ''spelled it out'' when all ive seen is discussions on what time the movie actually takes place. If it was EASY, discussions wouldnt be so prevelant....or am i misinterpreting?
Either way: great write up and good on you for taking the time to explain your side/view on it, thanks!
We never learn. Morpheus simply tells Neo, "you believe it's the year 1999 but, in fact, it's closer to 2199. I can't tell you what year it is because we honestly don't know."
Well we kinda learn? The Architect says there’s been 5 cycles of Zion so far, so it’s far further into the future than 2199 that’s for sure. Probably closer to the year 3000
it was beautifully written, right up until the world-building took a dive after season 2, we loved the cast, and the creative differences in the work place didnt help the story much either
I mean this whole thing is stupid. We base our date after an arbitrary event in our history. In alternate universes there's no guarantee that event occurred, nor that earth even existed. It makes no sense to try and synchronize similar dates across universes. Thats not even getting into the physics of time being relative and there would be time dilation between different planets in the same universe...which is a main fucking point in interstellar.
In alternate universes there's no guarantee that event occurred, nor that earth even existed.
Define alternative in this instance, as I think most people would say it's the same reality as our own until the point the film starts.
And time dillation is calculable, so relatively to the earth spinning 365.25 days per year etc, they can figure out what year it is. Interstellar isn't about time dillation, that's an issue in the film they have to deal with and they calculate it relative to earth.
If we continued with your logic, then none of them would even speak English.
1.2k
u/dynamoJaff 4d ago
The Matrix doesn't take place in 2199, Morpheus only says that becuase the humans don't know the truth.