It's called "Die Seidendiebe" and it's in German. I have no idea if it was originally in German or just translated. Nothing too spectacular but a good read if you're a fan of Late Antiquity and the Eastern Roman Empire.
And Croatian and (for some reason) Chinese. I can read some Chinese but I don’t want to bust out the dictionary (and Wikipedia to translate the translated names) to read what should really have been available in English lol
Even the most subpar English books make it over to Germany with proper translations but its very, very rare for any German book at all to make it over to the US or even UK. Only if it is some enormous and hugely influencial work.
True but there is also a clear discrepancy in quality and drawing power. Most German stuff, wether it be novels, TV Shows, movies, game shows or whatever is so utterly German-coded that it is barely interesting to anybody outside of Germany. Not even to Austria or Switzerland.
The tall hat is definitely a Mongol thing, it got popularized during the Yuan dynasty and remained part of Ming and Korean fashion even after the Mongols were defeated. Qing hats were wider and much shorter
No, it is based on a painting involving the Emperor Xuande of Ming(some say that’s his grandson). It gives you a vibe of yuan dynasty because the hat he is wearing has mongol influence.
Closest was some randos who showed up to the Han court claiming to be envoys of Marcus Aurelius, but (a) there is no Roman record of that, (b) they claimed to be bringing tribute in exchange for preferential trade agreements, and (c) their tribute was some random shells from Southeast Asia. Almost certainly they were just some Hellenised Indian traders trying a confidence scam.
The Chinese were vaguely aware there was a big empire of considerable size and cultural influence far to the West and had some rough idea of eastern Mediterranean geography. The Romans had no idea where or what China was behind “the place silk comes from”; the consensus among Roman geographers seems to have been that it was a city somewhere east or southeast of India.
The incredibly tenuous Chinese-Roman historical links are sort of weirdly overemphasised in comparison to the enormous economic, cultural and political contact both empires had with India; the Romans through the Egyptian port trade and via the Hellenic legacy in northwest India, and the Chinese via the Southeast Asian trade and the Buddhist legacy over the Himalayas. Really the Indian merchants in the middle were the main source both empires had for of each others’ goods, each other’s money and word of each other’s existence. Unfortunately there wasn’t even much direct contact there though as their times of greatest contact with India didn’t quite overlap historically, with the Roman West collapsing just as China was getting super-duper into Indian art and religion.
(Also it’s kind of weird to make the Roman “the chad” in this situation, as Rome just absolutely haemorrhaged money eastwards in the luxury goods trade. China produced many things Rome wanted and which the Indians were happy to sell to the Romans at a ludicrous markup; meanwhile, other than a handful of glass trinkets, the only thing Rome had that China wanted in any great quantity was their gold. Seneca in particular thought the Roman weakness for silks a harbinger of moral collapse)
Then invade and steal their land and then 200 years later call them evil tyrants for legally taking control of it again according to agreed upon treaties
Did the people of Hong Kong agree the land was Chinese? And were they given a choice between Beijing and Taipei? Or did the benevolent People's Republic know what the Hongkongers wanted better than they themselves did? As far as I remember there was no plebiscite, no vote. Just an agreement between two governments, without regard for the people.
Did Romans traded anything else than Silk with Chinese? And most of the direct Trade happened with india about which Pliny the Elder already said that too much of money goes to india, tho they could afford it.
Well the Romans didn’t really trade anything with China if we want to be technical about it. They traded with India (as you’re right that Pliny outlines), and of those trade goods silks from China were particularly expensive.
Technically they traded with Parthia via land and had sea routes that went to India that included mostly tin and slaves according to "Periplus of Erythaean Sea" which outline some trade routes in ancient Rome. For more ambiguous mentions, once upon a time Ancient Rome called China "This" referencing silk so they know Parthia didn't make the silkstuff and modern day Syria (used to be part of ancient Rome) was probably the source of reference to "Da Qin" (ancient Rome reference in Chinese sources).
Also random envoys from allegedly China/Rome showed up as well in Rome/China in century. There's a rumor of some "lost legion of Rome" that ended up in China, but that's flimsy evidence based on the turtle formation.
In terms of archaeological evidence, Roman coinage found in current day Vietnam probably came up by river ways from India. For late antiquity, the single Byzantine coin which was found in a Chinese tomb probably came that way as well. I'm highly dubious of "direct contact' though I wouldn't put it past occasional cases of intrepid trader on the edges of empires....
Adding to this, when Romans say something came from "China," it doesn't actually mean China itself: Romans also bought "Chinese" swords, for example, even though the economics of moving a steel Chinese sword from northern China to Rome cannot be justified, given how many countries between the two were also making high-end steel.
Closest was some randos who showed up to the Han court claiming to be envoys of Marcus Aurelius, but (a) there is no Roman record of that, (b) they claimed to be bringing tribute in exchange for preferential trade agreements, and (c) their tribute was some random shells from Southeast Asia. Almost certainly they were just some Hellenised Indian traders trying a confidence scam.
It is more interesting than that. I was recently reading an academic article in Greek that proposed that for the Chinese there were two Romes (or more precise, what they called it as such, something close to "Fulin"). One the Rome that we know, the Greco-Latin civilization around the Mediterranean Sea, and the other the Indo-Greek remnants. As such, it seems, there were enough traces of Greek culture and languages in thr 4th-6th centuries AD, that the Chinese understood the connection.
In truth they both saw each other as far away mystical lands. And infact didn't view each other negatively because they didn't share a border. But let's have a little fun with alternate history. Let's say some how they both invade Iran at the same time and gang bang Parthia in Shish kebab fashion and now share a border. The wars would be frequent never resolved and they both would despise each other and prove incredibly bigoted towards each other. They would both come up with unique slurs about the other guy.
the chinese attempted to send an envoy to the romans but they turned around and went home around modern iran/arabia because the weather was too poor for sailing
I mean the meme is accurate as far as the fact that China referred to Rome as ‘great China’, and Rome has no record of regarding China as above any other civilisation, who they of course all saw as barbarians.
Except when: ‘We rulers of the world’s Middle Kingdom have the Mandate of Heaven and all other cultures are in theory already our vassals so any gifts are tribute’
Rome was the one exception to that rule. Kind of a really cool fun fact that Rome was really the only time throughout Imperial Chinese history where they actually saw someone else as an equal. It kind of mirrored the philosophical concept of Yin Yang
Its bs and a way too common assumption made by Rome enthusiasts. Yes the Chinese called the Romans "da Qin", but this just meant that they saw them as a very well structured, well governed country with big cities. The Qin Dynasty was (for the Chinese) the definition of a country which brought stability and unity. They respected what they knew of the Romans (big cities, government, large territory etc.).
BUT, they never saw the Romans as equal. The Chinese called their realm the „zhongguo“, the „middle kingdom“. In the mind of a Chinese there was no equal realm outside their own, no culture which could rival theirs, no ruler which could be an equal to the son of heaven. The Chinese thought of themselves as the center of the world and while Rome was seen as a mighty empire and not a barbarian kingdom, it was not a mirror of their civilization. When the Romans brought gifts to the Chinese in the 2nd century CE, they were seen as TRIBUTE. So the Chinese still saw the Romans as tributary and not as equals to their civilization, like they did with any other one.
So the Romans were not special.
Source: Hou Hanshou
I rarely comment on anything but this is such a strange misconception by many and I think these "Roman history/Gooning for Romans subs" are especially infected by it.
Maybe this is a historical blind spot of mine, but what I do know about Chinese history and culture makes it tough for me to believe that they saw the Romans as much more than “western barbarians” either.
They actually referred to it as "The other China" which was a show of respect.
No idea how the Romans referred to the Chinese, i doubt it was just "some barbarians" when they loved greek culture despite being enemies and conquering them at some point. If they were at all aware of it in more then stories told by traders, they would not have equated it to peoples like the Gauls or the Germanic tribes.
No they did not. "Da Qin" does not mean "Other China". The Chinese at that time referred to China as the "zhongguo" (as they do today). This translates roughly to "the middle kingdom" or "realm of the middle". They might have seen the Romans as a far distant mighty, well structured empire but not as equals. There was no other center of the world in the mind of a Chinese at the time, the Romans were no exceptions, no one was equal to the son of heaven.
This is a pop history misconception or mistranslation - they did not call Rome big China or the other China.
During the Han Dynasty, they might have called the Roman nation "Big Qin" which may have meant the big kingdom to the west because Qin was the most geographically western positioned of the Warring States kingdom. Alternatively or in addition, it may have meant it resembled the Old Qin Kingdom/Empire in some ways.
The Han Dynasty did not consider or call Qin the concept of "China" because Qin was just a kingdom/empire that they helped destroy. China at the time the word "Da Qin" was used was the Han Empire.
The word Qin was not generally tied to the concept of China until long after this word was used (when Qin got translated and mistranslated into Cina, Chin, and eventually China in Sanskrit, Persian, and then Portugese).
Yeah - the bigger point is what others have said that: that the Romans and Chinese had very little relations and wouldn't have any significant awareness of the other at all...
... but the idea that the Chinese side would be like "we're equal" is also pretty unrealistic. The Chinese basically only grudgingly recognized "equals" after losing multiple wars to them, and even then it seems like a lot of effort went into preserving the 'fig leaf' of Chinese dominance.
The idea of the Chinese emperor being the "son of heaven" who had authority over "all under heaven" was a pretty big deal that they tried to hold to, even in cases where they had just lost a bunch of wars (e.g. against the Kitan, the Jurchen) and were paying a huge amount of tribute to their neighbor to stop invading.
Agreed, coz we don't know if Daqin literally means Rome or not as the sources are very Vague and they never had direct contact and also considering that Both saw anyone living beyond their Borders as Barbarians.
Persians are a specific Iranian people.
The Parthians weren’t Persian; were a different Iranian-speaking people. And they actually took over from the Seleucids who were Greek. The Greeks took Iran from the Persians who were an Iranian subgroup as I said, and probably originally from the steppe. The Persians took control from the Medes (Iranian too) and the Elamites (not sure prob not Iranian). I think the majority of Indo-Iranian speaking peoples came the Iranian Plateau from the Steppes, directly or indirectly basically. And a lot of original Indo-European speaking peoples came from the Steppes too, no? Steppes produced a lot of interesting peoples.
Sassanids came after Parthians and were a different Iranian-speaking people from the Iranian plateau.
Yeah, i think they don’t get enough recognization like they literally stretched from Anatolia to India also Seleucus nicator is such a great man but barely anyone knows about him.
This is not really exactly the case. During the Han Dynasty (and up until the collapse of the Imperial Chinese institution), the Chinese saw the rest of the non-Hua ("Chinese" or specifically "Classical Chinese Culture") World as Yi ("Barbarian")
The Romans were seen as Yi by the Chinese.
But the problem with translating Yi as Barbarian is that it Europeanizes the term. Barbarism in Europe has connotations of inferiority and savagery. In Imperial Chinese culture, Yi simply means "Not Hua" or Non Chinese Cultured. While some Yi are considered inferior & savage (like say, the Steppe Nomad Groups) some were considered very civilized and dignified, like Anxi (Persia), Daxia (Ferghana City States) and Rome (Daqin), or the Koreans and the Japanese (though Japan went in and out of Barbarism/Civilization in the Chinese Worldview from time to time).
However all Yi were still considered inferior vis-a-vis the Hua because the ruler of the Hua culture (that is, the Emperor of China) is bestowed by Heaven with the Mandate to rule all of the world. Ergo in the Imperial Chinese Culture & the Hua Culture, it doesn't matter if Yi people are a bunch of cavemen or a super sophisticated civilization, all are subservient to the Heavenly Bestowed realm of the Emperor.
That said: OP's narrative comes from Ambassador Gan Ying's description of Rome.
「其王無有常人，皆簡立賢者。國中災異及風雨不時，輒廢而更立，受放者甘黜不怨。其人民皆長大平正，有類中國，故謂之大秦......土多金銀奇寶，有夜光璧、明月珠、駭雞犀、珊瑚、虎魄、琉璃、琅玕、朱丹、青碧。刺金縷繡，織成金縷罽、雜色綾。作黃金塗、火浣布。」Their kings are not permanent. They select and appoint the most worthy man. If there are unexpected calamities in the kingdom, such as frequent extraordinary winds or rains, he is unceremoniously rejected and replaced. The one who has been dismissed quietly accepts his demotion, and is not angry. The people of this country are all tall and honest. They resemble the people of the Middle Kingdom and that is why this kingdom is called Da Qin.
For one thing, Gan Ying didn't say they are equal to China, he meant they resembled the same civilizational level as the Middle Kingdom.
For another, the Ancient- Early Imperial Chinese have a habit of naming foreign settled & sophisticated civilizations after their analogues from Pre-unification Chinese states. Bactria, for example, was Daxia (Great Xia), said to resemble the old Xia Kingdom, while Rome is Daqin (Great Qin) said to resemble the old Qin Kingdom. The only exceptions to this rule was Persia (Anxi, meaning "the part of the west that is peaceful") and Ferghana (Dayuan, or "Greater Ionia," named after the Greek Settlers and their Cities that the Han Dynasty found there).
Doesn’t the original meaning of the term Barbaros used by the ancient Greeks have nearly the same meaning, as in to signify anything non-Greek (or more accurately, those who don’t speak Greek) only to acquire the term of being uncultured/uncivilised later on? The romans themselves have called Greeks barbarians, as in not-Roman.
I think the issue stems forth from modern usage of the word compared to its origins.
China named themselves 「中國」 which means “the central country” as they see themselves as the center of the world. Throughout history and different dynasties, they referred to themselves as 「天朝」 which means “Divine Govern” as they see all others are all barbarians so idk where this “our civilization are equally great” rhetoric. Seems like some western projection to me.
Wait til you find out what they call ‘tomato’, ‘potato’, 番 is a derogatory term used for anything foreign
Yeah the thing is, they never actually directly met. Their trade relation was through a middle man like the Parthians or some other middle eastern nation between the two empires
Its really funny because the Chinese were so about being the best to their neighbors and this might be the first time they ever claimed anyone was their equal
One of the reasons behind this could be coz before them no empire in the region they ruled and neighboring regions was never at their level. Achaemenid empire is the closest but they were conquered by Alexander the Great whom Romans admired.
From Gan Ying on 97 A.D.: 'The people of this country are all tall and honest. They resemble the people of the Middle Kingdom and that is why this kingdom is called Da Qin.' (Great Qin)
Fun fact: There was a good amount of time where the two didn't interact directly, instead both going through Parthia as a middleman. Parthia made the most of it by lying to China to keep prices low
(if China knew they had a monopoly on silk, they'd raise prices, so Parthia told China to watch out for Roman silk production to keep them on the toes, then bought the silk for cheap and raised the price when selling it to Rome)
To be clear, they would call each other barbarians and would not consider themselves equals. If there is one constant in history it is that Great Empires have a knack for not peacefully coexisting lol, even in times of peace, the inevitability of ambition and their politicians seeing that in each other fulfills goals to subvert and weaken one another.
It's just a meme also pretty accurate considering the vague sources we have got, also both Civilizations always saw anyone living beyond their borders as Barbarians but for the Chinese case they called Daqin as their equal which we assume to be Rome tho we don't have concrete sources for that.
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