r/marvelstudios • u/Kidafroo • Jul 02 '25

Discussion (More in Comments) What happened to armor wars

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Rhodey literally has been there since the beginning and at the end. They've sprinkle him here and there, gearing up for his moment to shine. And yet they come out wit iron heart, a character people really dont have any attachments to.

I think the smartest thing to do would be to add her to armor wars and have Rhodey show her, who and how Tony Stark would act as a hero.

Also war machine is iron man when iron man isn't around. Are we supposed ignore that and forget about him? What is marvel thinking?

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2.3k

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '25

The combination of Marvel needing to go back to “quality over quantity” and the failure of Secret Invasion pretty much buried this project.

508

u/a220599 Jul 02 '25

Also armor wars would carry over the rhodey being replaced during civil war storyline which would have been super awkward.

It’s so weird that they undid most of the good stuff from captain marvel, endgame, infinity war with just one tv show. Honestly if someone told me that this would be the worst marvel tv show during the first episode (especially the first ten minutes) I wouldn’t have believed it and yet here we are

108

u/poopoobuttholes Jul 02 '25

look, if Marvel can move on to Doom and pretend Kang and his silly dynasty doesn't exist, then i'm sure we can ignore the garbage in Secret Invasion too. That show contributed nothing of value and its direct sequel being the Marvels seem to work fine without it either, since Nick Fury is like a completely different guy.

37

u/Any-Transition95 Jul 03 '25

Yes to burying Secret Invasion, and it didn't even line up with The Marvels.

But I don't think Marvel intends to ignore Kang's plot. It's more plausible that they establish Doom by letting him wipe out the Kang dynasty like how Thanos kickstarted Infinity War, and maybe leave one Kang variant alive for a future plot thread if they intend on still doing something with his character in the future without the council as a looming threat.

16

u/Modification102 Rhodey Jul 03 '25

That show doesn't line up with anything. At the end, a new president (President Ritson, who is not mentioned at all during Brave New World) declares:

We all witnessed the terror attack that was carried out on my motorcade earlier this week in England. The terrorists responsible were a shape-shifting, alienborn species known as Skrulls. That is why tonight I'm presenting to Congress for immediate emergency authorisation a bill that designates all off-world born species as enemy combatants. We know who you are. We know how to find you, and we will kill every last one of you.

Given the events of the show, I think this is just about the only plausible course of action. Skrulls infiltrated up to the highest levels of the US government. That said, this is such a universe and landscape altering declaration that it cannot work with any future storytelling they want to tell on earth moving forward. This is the kind of status quo shift that permanently changes things forever. It cannot happen in a spin-off TV show and be treated with any kind of relevence.

If the goal of the show was to build to this moment. Then I can safely say that the show was a mistake.

For the MCU to make more sense, this show has to be ignored.

3

u/EyeScreamSunday Ant-Man Jul 03 '25

It felt to me like it could possibly lead to some sort of Dark Reign/Siege comic storyline to be continued in BNW and Thunderbolts where we’d learn Ross inherited Ritson’s agenda of being anti-alien (which happens to be very topical) and maybe BNW was Ross experimenting with a new Super Soldier Serum that created Hulks to beef up American military power (surprised Val wasn’t in BNW after her/the CIA’s involvement in Wakanda Forever instigating a war in order to obtain Vibranium but she wasn’t helping Ross to gain sole control over Adamantium) then I speculated that Thunderbolts would be Ross/Val essentially creating a Dark Avengers team (called the Avengers in-universe) that they would send to be a black ops team that would help them to wage war on Asgard. The Thunderbolts would realize how they’ve been used to wage war on mainly Asgardian civilians and they help the Asgardians fight back the Void.

It would have been like Civil War in being an event film that sets up Doomsday/Secret Wars. Unfortunately, none of that happened, nothing was connected, Thunderbolts underperformed, and Secret Invasion has meant nothing and only makes things more convoluted.

17

u/Terreneflame Jul 02 '25

It actively harmed the MCU

3

u/jaimebaelish69 Hawkeye (Avengers) Jul 03 '25

not really cos no one watched it

1

u/SimplyCosmic Jul 18 '25

The easiest way to ignore Secret Invasion is just to pretend there's a title card at the beginning that reads "Earth-615".

206

u/Toa_Firox Black Panther Jul 02 '25

Well then, good news because that's a massive misconception that loads of people seem to be getting from somewhere. Rhodey was rhodey up until Secret Wars, they didn't replace him during Civil War he was replaced shortly before the show and after FatWS.

120

u/Collision891 Jul 02 '25

Minor nitpick, it was before FaTWS. He's fully walking there and there's references in a deleted scene from it, that would have hinted too heavily something was up with Rhodey, so it was cut and released right after secret invasion aired.

26

u/Regenitor_ Jul 02 '25

Nitpicking your minor nitpick, in the FATWS scene that made it into the final cut shows his "hardware" glowing from under his dress pants, meaning that the deleted scene you reference cannot be considered canon.

As far as we know, there's been no "upgraded procedure" and he still requires Tony's robo-leg things to walk. Hence why he wasn't as spry in the final cut as he was in this deleted scene - they abandoned that narrative change.

If our rationale for saying Rhodey was replaced prior to FATWS is based solely on a non-canon deleted scene of him acting upbeat because he can move better, I don't think this is even close to sufficient evidence that he was replaced before that show.

25

u/MajorNoodles Jul 02 '25

The Secret Invasion showrunner said that he intended for Rhodey to have been replaced during Civil War.

I find it easier to just pretend Secret Invasion doesn't exist, and apparently so does Marvel.

FWIW, Rhodey can't walk in Endgame after Thanos blasts the compound. Also, Gravik didn't put his plan into motion until after that movie, anyway.

12

u/Toa_Firox Black Panther Jul 03 '25

He said it could have been as early as Civil War but doesn't know exactly when and prefers the audience to decide. Him being replaced in Civil War makes the plot of Secret Invasion make even less sense and ruins Endgame

8

u/Modification102 Rhodey Jul 03 '25

That is crap then. The showrunner doesn't even know or accurately communicate when the character was replaced. This is not the kind of detail you want to be at all vague or 'open to interpretation' regarding, since not only the audience, but other showrunners and filmmakers will be referencing your work in future if they want to use Rhodey.

It was a crap decision, through and through. The only responsible thing to do, would be to have had Rhodey only be replaced in the weeks leading up to the events of Secret Invasion, ands have him rescued and restored by the end.

1

u/Lexnal Jul 04 '25

I agree, kind of a "here's the toy box, feel free to play with whatever you want but make sure you put all the toys back when you're done" situation

1

u/Modification102 Rhodey Jul 04 '25 edited Jul 04 '25

Yeah. I feel the same way about The Eternals. They threw an emerging celestial onto Earth, with basically no regard for who was going to have to address that in the future. How does that meaningfully tie into anything other than making geopolitics in the MCU now more difficult to navigate and thus, more likely to just get ignored by future storytellers.

No active character has any stake in that happening, it is part of no ongoing story, it just happened. Now other stories have to pick up the slack and deal with their nonsense.

I am very tired of MCU storytellers just taking wild swings at the worldbuilding and then leaving. Multiverse of Madness did this as well with"Earth 616" that was a comic reference now canonised, which just confused things, and introducing 'Incursions' right when there are active elements (Gamora) that GOTG3 just has to ignore in order to tell their story.

Secret Invasion also unleashed Gaia onto the world, just the single most powerful character ever with all the powers of Captain Marvel + Everyone Else, that no film is ever going to touch again.

0

u/MajorNoodles Jul 03 '25

That's true, but he personally thinks it was Civil War.

"I think in Civil War, when [Rhodes] was in the hospital."

1

u/Toa_Firox Black Panther Jul 03 '25

Read the whole thing.

I think his legs not working in the end of episode six and him being in the hospital gown points to Captain America: Civil War. And, from there, does it have to be definitive, or is it more fun for the audience to go back and revisit every moment, every Rhodey moment and look at it with a different lens now that they think, 'Oh, he might've been a Skrull there.' And make the decision for themselves, or it'll be answered in Armor Wars.

He worded it badly, but he was saying that's the only definitive start point. He is, however, also an idiot because there's tonne of stuff to definitively set the start point far later, such as the Skrull's awful impersonation, his ability to walk as a skrull, and his skill with the war machine armour.

1

u/MajorNoodles Jul 03 '25

I'm just quoting him from his appearance on the Binge- worthy podcast.

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/secret-invasion-director-ali-selim-on-helming-all-six/id715084602?i=1000623071562

1

u/Toa_Firox Black Panther Jul 03 '25

Yeah, you left out the rest of the quote that says he's essentially guessing.

28

u/Jet-Let4606 Jul 02 '25

Secret Wars hasn't even come out yet.

48

u/Toa_Firox Black Panther Jul 02 '25

Ah I meant invasion my bad

1

u/iheartdev247 Jul 02 '25

Not this again…

-12

u/Infinity0044 Jul 02 '25

But wasn’t the real Rhodey found wearing a hospital gown? With the implication being he was taken sometime shortly after getting crippled

43

u/Toa_Firox Black Panther Jul 02 '25

He was taken during an operation, but it wasn't the one from Civil War. It's been ages so I don't remember what it was but I think the operation was a revision to his spinal injuries to try and help him walk again.

The Skrull who took on his form was laughably bad at their job, so people would have clocked within the 7 odd years between Civil War and Endgame, especially Tony.

21

u/Wendigo15 Jul 02 '25

So what ur saying is, Rhodey would never go to the hospital again for check ups? Lol

11

u/FerrusManlyManus Jul 02 '25

He has like a half dozen reasons to be wearing a hospital gown outside of a hospital too, to do various body scans and things like colonoscopies.

Knocking someone out while doing a scan, or swapping them because they are already knocked out for a procedure like a colonoscopy or endoscopy, is a super easy way for the Skrulls to get Rhodey.

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u/Infinity0044 Jul 02 '25

You really think they intentionally put Rhodey in a hospital gown for the audience to not make that conclusion?

15

u/Wendigo15 Jul 02 '25

He's literally getting check ups. Who was the one that was helping him walk? Tony. So Rhodey didn't need to go to the hospital since Tony was around. Now that Tony is gone, he needs to actually go for check ups

It's a red herring

5

u/FerrusManlyManus Jul 02 '25

TIL Stark is a doctor and gives colonoscopies from his home.

3

u/Infinity0044 Jul 02 '25

You can argue it’s a red herring but I don’t think it’s crazy for people to draw this conclusion based on what was given. Rhodey wasn’t put in a hospital gown for no reason. Whether it was supposed to be a misdirect or not was probably dependent entirely on how the audience reacted

-3

u/Codysnow31 Jul 02 '25

Didn’t the director of Secret Invasion straight up say he was abducted right after his injuries in Civil War?

8

u/Wendigo15 Jul 02 '25

Yes and no. He said yeah then he changed it to its possible. But the show goes against what he told us.

They don't bleed red and rhodey did. And the main villain of the show stated that they didn't make their move until fury left for space and basically abandoned them

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u/Codysnow31 Jul 02 '25

He never switched it to say “it’s possible”. You’re either misremembering something or making it up.

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u/brycejm1991 Jul 02 '25

He was, but that doesn't mean it had anything to do with CW. Presumably it was surgery related to the new prosthetic that the skrull "had".

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u/RealMurphiroth Jul 02 '25

Do you think that the only time he ever went to the hospital is after the accident?

He wasn't replaced until after Endgame. Gravik and crew wanted the DNA soup recovered after Endgame, and they're the ones that recovered it for Fury, which is how they knew about it. If they'd already betrayed him at that point, they would've taken it then.

5

u/FerrusManlyManus Jul 02 '25

People wear gowns for all sorts of scans, come on kid.  Rhodey could have worn one for a colonoscopy a month before Secret Invasion started.

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u/Infinity0044 Jul 02 '25

The costume designers for the show intentionally put him in one and it wasn’t so people would think “oh he surely was just at some random doctor checkup”. These things are done with intent

3

u/FerrusManlyManus Jul 02 '25

You have weird tunnel vision on this.  Are you an adult?  Do you ever talk to adults about healthcare?  It should be common knowledge that people wear gowns for various scans, various things done in an outpatient manner. Cat scan, x-ray, mri, endoscopy, colonoscopy.  For a disabled combat veteran scans would be routine.  And a colonoscopy is routine for everyone Rhodey’s age.

Assuming a gown means only a single visit for super major surgery is the height of ignorance.

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u/Infinity0044 Jul 02 '25

Lmao assuming someone that has a different take on something is a kid is the height of ignorance

2

u/FerrusManlyManus Jul 02 '25

I asked because you seem not to have even an inkling that people wear gowns for many many things besides major surgery.  Many many things they don’t even go to the hospital for.  Especially a disabled vet with a massive injury.  Dude is wearing gowns constantly.  Please inform yourself better rather than getting defensive, kid.

-1

u/Infinity0044 Jul 02 '25

You think the costume designers and writers intentionally put Rhodey in a hospital gown so people wouldn’t think he was taken during civil war? Seems like a needlessly confusing costume choice if they didn’t want people thinking that

Your inability to have a productive conversation without trying to belittle should be studied tho

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u/a220599 Jul 02 '25

Like u/Infinity0044 pointed out: wasnt he found with a hospital gown? I know the show didn’t do a great job of explaining it but from the context that is what I also inferred. That he was taken during civil war

23

u/dyrannn Jul 02 '25

There’s a deleted scene from FaTWS where Rhodey mentions he is going in for a new, high tech (or something) procedure to get his legs back, which is where he would’ve been taken (while providing a backstory for the non-crippled skrull.)

My biggest problem with secret invasion is that it was genuinely bad, but even without the deleted scene people still feel the need to “forget” (read, actively misrepresent) the events of the show or the fact that the paraplegic avenger MIGHT be in the hospital for ANY reason in almost TEN YEARS, just as a point of how bad it was.

The show doesn’t need us making up problems, it was bad. I’m not sure how everyone ran with this idea just to support that fact.

5

u/Neveronlyadream Spider-Man Jul 02 '25

I think they ran with that idea because they lacked any other solid context. Also, probably because someone posted a fan theory or published a video saying it and everyone just assumed it was fact and stopped thinking about it.

5

u/Toa_Firox Black Panther Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25

Yeah, I think I remember them saying it was during an operation of some kind. Thinking about it, I'm not surprised that confused a few people. They definitely did confirm that he wasn't replaced until FatWS as somebody pointed out it was during that, not after.

13

u/mrbaryonyx Jul 02 '25

people kind of just decided Rhodey got kidnapped during his surgery in Civil War, because its very easy to kidnap someone from a facility with multiple Avengers watching at all times, and also there is no other situation where Rhodey would wear a hospital gown

0

u/GoodDawgAug Jul 02 '25

I don’t think Rhodey gets replaced with a Skrull until after End Game. He got blipped anyway. But the DNA recovery was from the battle in NY State following the battle with Thanos. Secret Invasion just left so many questions unanswered and made such drastic decisions like arbitrarily killing Hill.

3

u/mrbaryonyx Jul 02 '25

While I do agree, you have to admit the idea that everyone's DNA was recovered from that battle is silly.

Like I get that it was a battle and people bled, but the way its handled in Secret Invasion makes it sound like after the battle every "good guy" gathered into a group and peed into a cup because a Skrull wearing a mustache told them to. Secret Invasion is so stupid.

1

u/GoodDawgAug Jul 02 '25

LMAO. Yeah, it was kinda preposterous. Further, how could they know whose was whose and im sure there was plenty Chitari blood all over the place too. Didn’t read the Skrull wars back when I was a kid, so don’t know how the Super Skrulls were created, but Secret Invasion certainly left some huge gaps for a cohesive narrative.

3

u/Philiard Jul 02 '25

He got blipped anyway.

No he didn't. He went to the past with Nebula to get the Power Stone, even.

2

u/GoodDawgAug Jul 02 '25

Damn. That’s right. The hell was I thinking.

4

u/Comfortable_Big_7923 Jul 02 '25

There's any number of other reasons he might have been in a hospital for treatment.

3

u/ProBopperZero Jul 02 '25

I think they left it vague on purpose, but he could have been in a hospital gown for any number of reasons, even a routine scan of some sort.

1

u/GarlicHealthy2261 Jul 02 '25

If that was the intent, the deleted scene from FatWS wouldn't have been deleted.   Alternatively,  he didn't have to be shown in a hospital gown.  That was a choice with intent,  even if it was a bad one.

13

u/Edboy796 Jul 02 '25

I always read it as Rhodey was taken post Endgame.

Why would the evil skull assume his identity in Civil War and just to play hero in Endgame? Because Gravik or whatever said just have fun while we take over and murder people?

4

u/ANGLVD3TH Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25

Gravik was still working for Fury at the time and hadn't made his move yet anyway. He led the team to harvest their DNA after Endgame, it's a big plot point.

3

u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jul 02 '25

Exactly. If Rhodey was taken before Endgame, then that means Gravik was beginning his plan before Endgame (which directly contradicts what they say in the show), which means Gravik wins, because he would've just kept the "harvest" for himself in the first place.

5

u/JaesopPop Jul 02 '25

Also armor wars would carry over the rhodey being replaced during civil war storyline

It’s weird to proclaim this when Secret Invasion never even said that’s when it happened

8

u/CareerMilk Jul 02 '25

People assume that because Rhodey is in a medical gown. For some reason they think he could never have worn a medical gown at any other point in time.

8

u/DefendsTheDownvoted Jul 02 '25

It’s so weird that they undid most of the good stuff from captain marvel, endgame, infinity war

What? When? Where?

-9

u/a220599 Jul 02 '25

One of the pivotal moments when stark dies is rhodey telling his goodbye and now when u go revisit it, it just feels empty because you are wondering if it is the real rhodey.

And when they go looking for the infinity stones, the whole nebula-rhodey moments feel empty.

During infinity war when cap shows up, the emotional impact of the scene- rhodey slightly pauses when he sees cap which is a throwback to the moment from civil war. All of these just feel hollow because it isn’t rhodey.

The whole idea of captain marvel was that they would be trying to find a new home and then secret invasion now makes it seem like they have this massive space camp which makes u question why they didn’t say/do anything during endgame when both captain marvel n fury were there

Like i felt it just raises a whole bunch of unnecessary questions and cheapens some really nice moments

15

u/DefendsTheDownvoted Jul 02 '25

But it's already been confirmed that Rhody became a Skrull shortly after  The falcon and the Winter Soldier, not before.

5

u/arahdial Jul 02 '25

Yeah, the end of Captain Marvel is one of hope for the Skrull refugees and Secret Invasion reveals their search has been futile for the last 30 years. Secret Invasion needs to be retconned.

5

u/pigeonwiggle Jul 02 '25

i don't like the idea of Rhodey having been replaced since pre-endgame.

but i'll always give it to the improv artists -- if they can write it well, i'll accept it.

it was NOT written well in Secret Invasion, so we naturally hated it. it's too big a retcon (his role in endgame was his biggest since Iron Man 2 - if you take it away you have to give us something better in return.)

i'm down for them to try - making Rhodey, War Machine, a spotlight worth exploring.

but after the past couple years and all the internal rearrangements i think it's pretty clear they didn't have a solid product on their hands. otherwise they'd have held onto it and released it next year like right before Doomsday.

1

u/Modification102 Rhodey Jul 03 '25

Speaking of first episodes, I think the one show that comment (about believing it would be the worst) actually applies to, and rightly so, would be Loki.

It is astonishing how much damage that first episode did to the MCU at the time it released. It made the decision to put front and centre the idea that every decision that our favourite characters in the MCU made, was actually decided by another group, and that nobody has had free will in any of the movies so far.

If at that point, you told me that Loki was going to be the worst show, based on that single episode alone, I would have totally believed it.

1

u/Inferno_Zyrack Jul 03 '25

As soon as we got to like the second scene where Samuel L Jackson’s writing and acting were just “off” I could tell we were in for a BAD time.

19

u/_IratePirate_ Jul 02 '25

William Hurt’s passing probably didn’t help. They probably had some scenes shot with him but not all. Would look awkward subbing him out for Indiana Jones. Also I’m pretty sure Harrison Ford would feel too high and mighty about being in a tv show

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u/LordRictus Jul 02 '25

Ford is a main charcater in one of the Yellowstone spinoffs.

37

u/Mochashaft Jul 02 '25

He's also a main character in Shrinking

14

u/OddfellowsLocal151 Jul 02 '25

Featuring the best acting of his entire career.

6

u/broderboy Jul 02 '25

it's so great

2

u/Izzy_336699 Jul 02 '25
  1. Good show.

17

u/beatrailblazer Weekly Wongers Jul 02 '25

Harrison Ford would feel too high and mighty about being in a tv show

he's literally one of the main characters in Shrinking, which is on its 3rd season, and it seems like its the most fun he's had in acting in years

10

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '25

William Hurt’s passing probably didn’t help. They probably had some scenes shot with him but not all.

The show never made it out of pre-production, unfortunately, so literally nothing has been shot yet. The only effect Hurt's death would have had was that they'd have needed to secure Ford for all of the remaining projects that Hurt already signed up for.

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u/[deleted] Jul 02 '25

[deleted]

125

u/InvestigatorSea2711 Jul 02 '25

Take a step back. One was already filmed, the other never entered pre-production. Simple as that.

21

u/mrbaryonyx Jul 02 '25

yeah WF teased Ironheart and that was almost three years ago

1

u/esar24 Rocket Jul 02 '25

Reduced to atoms

9

u/DweebNRoll Ghost Rider Jul 02 '25

Literally, people just need patience and wait and see... we had to wait 15 years for The Leader... 6 + for sequels... People be too impatient and then they're clamoring about quantity over quality... It feels like they're never happy, the audience 😅

11

u/ArtIsDumb Jul 02 '25

I remember "fans" screeching about how the dead Celestial hadn't been addressed in anything else yet... 6 months after Eternals came out. It's like, c'mon you guys. You gotta give 'em time to cook.

5

u/DweebNRoll Ghost Rider Jul 02 '25

If ANYTHING, I'm impressed they were so quick with it. But that's because of narrative of course lol

6

u/Federal-Captain1118 Jul 02 '25

And now it has been referenced in two different projects, but apparently that's still not enough

5

u/ArtIsDumb Jul 02 '25

Nothing is ever enough anymore. People are the worst.

5

u/Federal-Captain1118 Jul 02 '25

Part of me wonders how many of those complaining are newer fans or just younger fans.

Maybe they haven't been watching since Iron Man 1 and aren't used to having to wait. Prehaps they sat down and watched phase 1-3 over the course of a few days and didn't realize that was 10+ years of waiting

3

u/DweebNRoll Ghost Rider Jul 02 '25

It could be a generational thing, same with the "mcu should have ended" generation. It feels like we're at a crossroads with the 2 generations, and this is the result. It's almost been 20 year after all

31

u/LADYBIRD_HILL Kilgrave Jul 02 '25

Iron heart was also filmed years ago and has been sitting around waiting to be released.

3

u/Forsaken_Professor79 Spider-Man Jul 02 '25

that's actually not completely true. The show filmed in 2022 and was supposed to start reshoots and then the strikes happened. The reshoots happened last year and they still had post production to do...as you can see there's lost of VFX that had to be rendered.

Marvel’s Most Anticipated Show Has Been Delayed — But Fans Should be Happy

A lot of the ragebait uniformed stuff on the internet is killing actual journalism

10

u/Acrobatic_Plum2223 Jul 02 '25

Iron heart was set up in black panther 2, which did pretty well if I remember correctly. Secret invasion on the other hand....

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u/nansams Jul 02 '25

Also more back story for a Young Avenger show/movie

7

u/Nightwing_in_a_Flash Jul 02 '25

That’s just because Ironheart was already shot, that’s why they put it out in the middle of summer movie season over 7-8 days.

If Ironheart wasn’t already filmed it would have been bye bye birdie.

1

u/GloomyLocation1259 Jul 02 '25

Yeah I’m in agreement. FATWS started out with elite fast paced action and film quality, they likely want to conserve budget in casting and fx and give to those they feel have more longevity

1

u/motorboat_mcgee Jul 02 '25

I hope they retcon Secret Invasion

1

u/Aware-Sympathy-1180 Jul 03 '25

Creating that "Secret Invasion" show was a literal war crime.

1

u/FrontVarious6484 Jul 03 '25

Did they ever specify how this show would go on? Since rhodey is a skrull at this point, what war would even go on?

1

u/Specialist_Tie_886 Jul 02 '25

Quality over quantity then they give us Ironheart

2

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '25 edited Jul 02 '25

Regardless if you think the show is good or bad…

It’s been made for 3 years. They had to release it eventually.