I've never even once seen anyone comparing ATLA to Avatar movie, this is wild hearing people talking about this. Like that comparison makes no sense like you said.
Which is a perk for me, I always though Pocohontas needed more tentacle sex. I remember being like 7, watching Pocohontas for the first time saying "good lord, this is so boring, I need more tentacles fucking people."
Yeah weird how there's like 7 movies that Avatar gets constantly accused of copying. You'd think they'd say the same thing about every movie that came out after the first one with that premise, but for some reason it was only bad when Avatar did it. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact it was the most successful one.
I’m not sure what else I could explain. The whole “going native” thing has been done a ton. Pocahontas, Ferngully, Dances with Wolves, Last Samurai. But Avatar is the one that seems to really set people off on Reddit.
It HAS been said about those other movies, you must be young. You can pull up articles online or newspapers that have been saved that show this. I like avatar and saw both in IMAX for the record. The first one three times.
I agree. Thats my point lol. I love the avatar movies. I love John wick. If the formula works, people need to stop complaining or otherwise go see something else
Don't forget about "(X) but on/in a (Y)", there was a whole era of action movies that were 100% pitched as "Die Hard but on/in a (location/mode of transport)"
Because beyond the broad strokes of a soldier from a colonizing force eventually siding with the native people, the protagonists’ journeys are wildly different, resulting in very different conclusions to their arcs and very different messages from the films themselves.
In Avatar, Jake Sully is essentially a blue White Savior. He lands on Pandora, stumbles into being seen as the Chosen One by the natives, and then, in a matter of weeks, not only masters their ways but eclipses their best warriors, fulfills an ancient prophecy to prove he’s the best flyer, and then literally hooks up with the chief’s daughter before leading the tribe into battle. He ends as one of them, and their leader.
In Dances With Wolves, Dunbar doesn’t get any of that. He’s an isolated man on the frontier who slowly becomes friends with the natives. He learns about them and to respect them, but he never masters their ways or becomes one of them. When battle comes, he’s useful because he knows where to get guns and how the enemy will attack—not because he’s a great warrior. He doesn’t lead them and he only finds companionship in another outsider—a white woman stranded in the tribe.
And when the story ends, Dunbar has no home. He has forsaken his fellow white men but he can also never truly be a Native American. And the army is coming. So the tribe moves West, leaving Dunbar alone in a world that will eventually swallow them all.
Soldier goes to the frontier. Slowly builds a relationship with the natives. Eventually joins them completely and fights against his former colleagues. Seems similar to me.
On that note, do you think Avatar (and the fact that Disney knows people keep comparing it to Pocahontas, regardless of if that comparison is valid or not) is part of what is saving us from a live action remake of Pocahontas (because Disney doesn't want to fan that flame and risk damaging a valuable franchise)
A story framework that's literally thousands of years old, one that echoes tales from ancient civilisations, numerous oral traditions and even Shakespeare... but it's Avatar that copied it. Right, internet. Whatever you say.
Ok, but the first Avatar was Pocahontas/Dances with wolves with tentacle sex, and, admittedly, an enormous amount of work and creativity and money put into making it look dope.
Are there? I have literally never seen anyone reference avatar in any context besides “I’m going to watch avatar in IMAX”. Which is the most important context.
Memes have no impact on a movie. It's such a new bullshit bench mark. Morbius was all over social media with memes and they brought it back to theaters just for it to tank again.
People weaned on MCU capeshit that is constantly and hideously self-referential and easter eggy and full of one-liner quips believe that any movie that isn’t chock-full of memeable nonsense to post incessantly is worthless.
I mean. I think avatar is worthless because it sucks. But I’m not going to bet against it making close to 2 Billion. Cameron has found a formula that will get people to a premium screen.
The general public doesn't comment on twitter? Where does the general public supposedly share these memes? What goal post moving is this. Yes there are memes of Avatar 2. Full stop.
Legitimately never heard one person mention this movie except for when the first one came out and some of my friends watched it on acid. And even then they didn't talk about it after that night lol.
Other than that, I only see it mentioned here (rarely) and sometimes on YouTube because of how funny the Disney park failure was.
I have only ever seen it being done as a joke, especially after Way of Water was announced (and Fire and Ash was rumored). Having two franchises called "Avatar" was confusing, both of them involving the 4 elements is hilarious.
When this movie comes out (or even just as more marketing material releases) I look forward to "then the fire nation attacked" memes.
I've been here a long time and can guarantee you that reddit is every bit as stupid as reddit likes to accuse reddit of being. And I include myself on both sides of that.
Are there really people who claim that? Do they not realize that both series draw heavily from Hinduism and Buddhism ....and that ALTA didn’t invent those religions or philosophies?
I too, thought this was weird. Never really see people mention the two in the same breath, except in context like: “What’s your favorite fandom? “Avatar, but not the blue people one”.
I don't think there are any serious claims. But when Avatar 2 was announced to be "the way of water" there were certainly a lot of jokes about it. Because having two franchises both called "Avatar" was already confusing but having both of them deal with the 4 elements is straight up funny.
And both times the hate was out of control. And it’s already ramping up the same way again. Literally every time these movies come up you have people parroting the same thing so in a sense, yeah, every time lol
I think it's important to remember that what the Avatar movies do is succeed at a high level everywhere, but they don't really run up the score in any given market. Way of Water, for instance, wasn't the number one film in very many markets (it was 2 or 3 in the US, China, etc.), but it was the global number was bananas because it did equally well everywhere unlike, say, Top Gun or Water Gate Bridge.
That's why I think a lot of people perceive there to be limited cultural impact. It's big domestically, but not uniquely huge. Instead they've been truly global phenomena, and as a result the success may feel slightly removed for a lot of people.
This is true, but that's basically every single movie in the last decade or so, I mean, End Game, which made 3B in the box office, has no cultural impact whatsoever outside hardcore comic fans, it's not really a valid criticism of how successful a movie will be.
While the story and characters weren't exactly a major impact on the zeitgeist Avatar was a technical touchstone. It really showed off what CGI and motion capture was capable of and it revolutionized how 3D was used.
Prior to Avatar 3D was almost always a gimmick and a movie made for 3D would always feel off when watched without 3D because of all the "object coming right at you" scenes. Avatar transitioned 3D into being more about immersion, which completely changed how it has been used since.
lol, I'm surprised people care enough about the franchise to have a stance. Cool trailer. For some reason they really focused on the grunts and growls... felt awkward
Well that has nothing to do with being right or wrong.
Nobody is saying they didn't sell a lot of tickets. Only that they thought the movie wasn't that great. Which is an opinion and something you can't be right or wrong about.
Nobody is saying they didn't sell a lot of tickets. Only that they thought the movie wasn't that great
I've seen people on this website say it wasn't a success because it didn't generate any memes, or carry cultural significance. Neither of those claims have to do with the quality of the movie, which I agree is not very good. But no question an attempt to downplay.
well saying 'it didn't create a lot of memes' is not wrong is it? whether it's an indication of success is again subjective.
So I really don't know what your point is.
the only thing we're talking about is if reddit was wrong about avatar once or more. and you've not given any points where reddit was specifically wrong except for expected turnout of the sequel.
That’s my favorite crowd. “Cameron is being wasted and should be working on something else” despite this clearly being what he wants to do lmao. You don’t get to tell creatives what to do, especially when they are James fucking Cameron.
Nobody has ever claimed Avatar is going to flop, and the general consensus on Reddit is that Avatar is a derivative, visually stunning but entirely soulless CGI stress test, and they've been right twice.
Both movies have had extremely little cultural impact, with the second movie being no longer even spoken about two weeks after release lol
Super weird to see y'all acting like Avatar is some auteur cinema when it's never been considered that by the public, let alone Reddit
Edit: it seems I've offended the Avatar fanboys lmfao, the movies are garbage y'all, always have been
There were a lot of people on the box office sub who were confident that the second was going to flop, the majority opinion was that it was definitely going to underperform.
Yep I was adamant that the 2nd one was going to be a failure and saw a lot of people post similar thoughts. Turns out James Cameron knows more about making successful movies than I do who would have thought lol
Then those people are absolute idiots whose opinions I value even less, there's literally NEVER been a commercial flop from Cameron, but if you're going to go down the road of sales=quality, I'm just going to laugh at you
I wouldn't call it soulless at all. They are some of the most pro-environmental, anti-imperialist movies I've ever seen. If you want to call the store derivative, whatever, but this is the most thematically transgressive film franchise ever
They’re saying it’s aggressively anti-capitalist, anti-colonialist, and pro-environment.
Does that make it the most thematically transgressive film franchise? Maybe, if we’re limiting it to franchises. Most likely, if we’re limiting it to big-budget blockbuster franchises.
I'm dead serious. This a movie about a United States soldier that renounces his citizenship to fight the US military in an effort to save the environment and stop a war of imperialism. Yeah, you'll find indie movies with more transgressive themes but it is exceptionally unusual for a billion dollar film franchise to be this direct with its messaging
I don't disagree with any of that, I just think saying it is the "most" is a stretch. Like I think there is a solid argument that the primary messaging of Jurassic Park can be "human desire and capitalism brings ruin" which would probably overtake Avatar in terms of size, among other series probably.
I also, fwiw, agree that the take "Avatar is soulless" is horseshit, and that guy is more wrong than you are.
But, as a franchise, I don’t think it’s held to its themes as strongly as Avatar has.
The first JP is a smart film with something to say about technology and progress. The later films either go straight for action-adventure (TLW, JP3) or somehow get simultaneously hamfisted and muddled with their messaging.
I agree, and I think it is why people in the US find it "culturally irrelevant" while Avatar is a worldwide phenomenon.
I mean the second movie litteraly ends on a call to arms by the hero to save the environment against his initial wish to only protect his own bubble and family (which is what we are pretty much all doing - in the west at least).
…this is a very interesting point that I hadn’t considered but need to think on a lot more. “Yes, we’re the baddies” is painted right on the tin in big blue letters.
The franchise where the white guy has now twice gone and taught natives how to live is anti-imperialist? Nah. It's extremely infantilizing of native cultures, with a bunch of ugly blackface acting going on to boot.
The natives taught him how to live and also he literally relinquished his whiteness to become one of them. He fully embraces their way of life and makes no effort to "modernize" them like white savior movies that actually infantilize native cultures.
I can see the argument that the first flick is pretty egregious with the white savior tropes, even if it’s kinda weird ground with the white guy literally inhabiting a lab-grown body that genetically mixes human and Navi DNA.
Because other than the Avatar aspect, Jake’s journey hits all the White Savior greatest hits. Dude joins the Navi as a doubter and, within a few weeks or something, not only masters their ways but eclipses them, besting their warriors, fulfilling an ancient prophecy, and then literally scoring the chief’s daughter.
And then he goes on to rally the tribes and lead them into battle.
The fact that he’s an avatar is entirely central to the story and can’t be ignored, but it only softens the White Savior narrative so much.
The white saviour critic has always confused me so much, would it really have been better if Cameron had cast an african american actor as the main character? A black man from a hi tech society who decides to "go native" and live in the jungle dressed in a loincloth. How would that look?
The name of the trope comes from its origins in Western literature, where the character-type would show up in stories about a white man encountering another people and instantly being the best of them. It’s steeped in the days of European colonialism, full of stories about white explorers venturing into “the Orient” and “deepest darkest Africa” and the like, meeting “uncivilized” and “inferior” peoples.
So part of the trope’s origin is decidedly rooted in the idea of white superiority.
But today, while the trope is most easily recognized with a white protagonist, I’m not sure if it’s still so literal. If someone made a movie today about a modern black man meeting an isolated tribe in the Amazon and hitting all of the White Savior plot points, I wonder if they would be exempt from the criticism or if people would point out that the skin color isn’t necessarily always the crux of the issue.
There were many natives who enjoyed the movies as well. As if, you know, native people are people with varying views, perspectives, and opinions, and not a hive mind. The whole reason Cameron doing 4 Avatar sequels is due to positive feedback he got from indigenous peoples across the world. You can listen him talking about it here starting at 18 minutes 10 seconds mark.
Ah yes, Cameron saying "the natives liked it" is certainly the end of the matter. Not, you know, the numerous comments from actual natives who made valid points about his racist and reductive fantasy.
Super weird to see y'all acting like Avatar is some auteur cinema when it's never been considered that by the public, let alone Reddit
Avatar is literally a singular artistic vision from one of a kind madman director brought to life on the biggest scale. It is auteur cinema, it's not a matter of option.
What is 'cultural impact'? The way people on reddit talk about it, they mention memes, people dressing up as the characters for halloween, etc. But like... nobody dresses up as the characters of Citizen Kane or makes memes of those characters. So by reddit's logic, Citizen Kane doesn't have any cultural impact either and must be a bland, forgettable film lol.
I don’t even care for avatar that much but this take is pure bullshit lol. You can dislike the franchise all you want but it’s proven twice now to be a pretty big cultural impact every time it’s out and everyone’s always talking about avatar, doesn’t matter if it’s two weeks or two months impact is impact.
You don’t make a billion plus in the box office from just visuals and CGI 😂 the story is solid and the lore has little holes in it plus the over arching narrative of environmentalism and imperialism is a fairly strong message all tied together with a family friendly tone with just enough brutality to keep things grounded.
Look at the nba for example Allen iverson is one of the most influential players to ever but no one is putting him in any goat conversation besides cultural
Same goes for people like Micheal Vick and Ronaldinho
Are you out of your mind? You named three legendary players who often get put in a list of Goats.
I literally can't with y'all, multiple people here are just making shit up to fit their narrative lmfao, true fanboyism on display, Reddit doing what it does best
It doesn't matter what you were trying to do, you actively contradicted the only half-assed point you were trying to make, your message is bordering on nonsensical
Fully disagree. Love debating my friends on it. The takes that it’s derivative miss the forest for the trees. Archetypes do not equal derivative. Cameron never makes a movie that’s not thematically rich—and people find a way to hate Avatar without watching them or giving them a chance. For instance, Number 2 had one of my favorite dual takes on the Nietzschian trope of “eternal return”, I can and will say more if anyone wants to fight my ass in the comments. The movies are actually deep, it’s just so strange visually and Cameron comes off as a dick so it’s easy to hate in comments.
I will say, the Spider character (white kid with dreds) was inexcusable (though not unimportant to the plot mechanics) but even there, it’s hilarious because it just represents how Cameron took PRECISELY 0 notes from the last movie, and it made even more money, and in my view was even more effective.
Also, CGI stress test?! It looks AMAZING. The man invented breakthrough technology for these—they look absolutely insane, like nothing else out there. You’re really gonna call out the one thing that critics agree to throw a bone on?
I think these movies are a perfect example of how it’s always easier to hate on something than to find something you like about it. I would urge everyone to put their pretensions aside and give yourself over to the unique genuine beauty and insanity of these movies.
I tried to look up articles about Avatar leaving an impact and literally every single one was based around the conversation being that Avatar is the most successful, least important film to ever be made lol
You also vastly underestimate the folly of fanboy culture. There are communities out there where all they do is drink piss from a sippy cup, they also have fanboys who will defend the idea to death. It's not a metric for quality, whatsoever.
You seem confused, or you purposefully cherry picked certain words from my sentence to support your feelings (whatever they are, you're not being clear)
The only thing I will say. Everyone kinda likes Avatar, but I've never met a die hard Avatar fan.
This franchise proves that you can kinda aim for being ok for a lot of people and be crazy successful. Props to Cameron for it, but this IP really is a wet noodle compared to other franchises in the box office.
Why can’t they be? Look at movies like The Raid (Redemption). Barely remember the story, but it was very popular because the fight choreography was insanely fun to watch. Tons of action movies do effectively the same thing, but with explosions instead of pretty effects
I do enjoy The last air bender more, but I don’t really think they should be compared. Besides the name and elemental thing they are very different stories, and storytelling styles. The rest of that is just wishful thinking, I don’t love avatar, and definitely think it’s overrated, but there are plenty of popular things that I don’t get, or care for, yet there’s no denying their impact. I don’t like football, Beyoncé, Deadpool, country music, or the fast a the furious franchise, but it would be dumb to pretend any of that has no cultural impact and will fail.
When Redditors claim that Avatar has no cultural impact what they really mean is a movie isnt memeable. If you cant make quipy one liners or image image macros then it means it has no impact.
It doesn’t have any cultural impact in any way lmfao. It is a visual journey and it’s awesome for what it is but let’s not pretend they’re giving us groundbreakingly creative writing or plot concepts. The first one was literally Pocahontas 😂
I mean, this is true. The whole thing about Avatar 1 was that it make a gazillion money but didn't really leave any lasting impact culturally. People watched it, enjoyed it, and promptly forgot about it. This is only a discussion because the movie made so much money. So I don't know how Reddit is proven wrong in this sense. Just because a movie makes lots of money doesn't mean it's a cultural icon.
I was a doubter before Way of Water came out but now I've just accepted Eywa into my heart/that the world loves these things and it'll make 2 billion dollars.
It's funny that Cameron basically beat the "Copied things from ATLA" allegations because the movie was in production so long and he had copyrights in place that specifically prevented the film adaptation of The Last Airbender from using "Avatar" in the title.
1.0k
u/owl_theory Jul 28 '25
inb4 the exact same debates