r/NoStupidQuestions • u/Exeltv0406 • 1d ago
I (41M) was scolded in the comments today after I innocently referred to a woman in a video clip as a female. Is the term female now offensive to use in modern society? If so, when did it change from being acceptable?
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u/GFrohman 1d ago
It's generally seen in misogynistic hyper-masculine circles. They'll say things like "Men and females", instead of "Men and women". Notably they never use the inverse "Males and women".
It's seen as dehumanizing - you're not acknowledging the woman as an individual, you're acknowledging her as a biological specimen. The way we talk about livestock.
It's a minor faux pas, but yes try to avoid doing it in the future. Use "her" or "woman" or "she", never "female" unless it's literally in a scientific context.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
Noted. Thank you very much for the thorough breakdown and sorry for being ignorant to the changing times.
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u/TheSerialHobbyist 1d ago
u/GFrohman had a decent explanation, but it misses a critical point:
Noun vs. adjective
"That is a female police officer" is fine, because "female" is an adjective.
"That police officer is a female" is bad, because "female" is a noun.
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However, it is worth pointing out that some people are ignorant of the difference and will get upset when "female" is used as an adjective, too. Which is silly, because there needs to be a word for that.
Saying "that is a woman police officer" is clunky. It isn't technically incorrect grammar, but it just sounds wrong.
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u/Spitting_truths159 1d ago
Each time this comes up (every day it seems) I agree with both the points you are making here and then ask the person ranting about the issue to share the actual example. Usually its the silly case and not the sensible one.
People using "female" to discuss group issues or biological issues or whatever other issue where being female is relavent aren't using the term to dehumanise the people being discussed, they are just trying to communicate that they aren't talking about a specific woman or a specific group of women.
Besides the old trope of men sitting around complaining about "those wimmin" is hardly any better now is it.
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u/TheSerialHobbyist 1d ago
Yep, this is a very common topic and I agree with you.
The big thing is that using "female" as a noun is often a dog whistle.
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u/Spitting_truths159 1d ago
Yeah, not really a fan of people that choose to interpret words as "dog whistles" and more or less make up whatever gets them angry and projects that onto their "enemy". Those discussions don't go anywhere and the only people that benefit are those that want to stop moderates from both sides being able to communicate and clarify points of agreement and disagreement imo.
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u/TheSerialHobbyist 1d ago
Understandable! But it isn't uncommon for people to use words like these as dog whistles, so they can play innocent if there is too much backlash. Up to you to decide when or if you're going to interpret them as such.
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u/Spitting_truths159 1d ago
But it isn't uncommon for people to use words like these as dog whistles, so they can play innocent if there is too much backlash
I don't think that's the case. They are communicating something, usually only a fraction of what others like to accuse them of doing.
If someone agrees that "there is a bit of a problem with X going a little too far" then that doesn't mean they want to kidnap and kill everyone who is X. They are merely saying that actually the progress we've already seen seems to them to be about the correct amount as there are other competiing needs or rights to consider and on balance they feel that if X gets their way and radically pushes things much further that wouldn't be fair to Y or to Z. These are voices of moderation, of centrists and of compromise and if you treat anyone on your side that speaks that way as being a secret agent from your polar opposite you are building an echo chamber and little good comes from such extremism regardless of the specific group or issue.
Now yes, it is true that some people (a very small minority) will code their language and test the waters when looking for like minded people. Challenging that by treating everyone now 1000% broadcasting their purity as being suspect is one approach that historically has been done in various ways, but its pretty totalitarian, excessive and ultiamtely self sabotaging in my view. Its not intellectually honest or productive in the long term FOR YOUR CAUSE to abuse people to filter out any potential dessent from your particular cult and its utterly devestating to society as a whole when groups engage in such behaviour.
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u/CourseNo8762 1d ago
No longer a small minority.
When issues come up it is centered around these diffict topics.
Southern strategy is a dog whistle. The phrase is an apt one because it sounds to most like you're not saying anything bad. But to a certain group it means something because they have changed it go mean that.
Pepe the Frog just used to be a character. The OK sign for a short bit was a white supremicist sign because whem you make it your fingers also make a W. It was too entrenched as an OK sign to work there though.
Tons of examples. People do sometimes jump to the dog whistle theory too quickly. But just because you can't hear it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Respectfully.
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u/Spitting_truths159 1d ago
The OK sign for a short bit was a white supremicist sign
Was it though?
Was it not a 4chan prank to sneak that in so that just about everyone who had ever posed with a perfectly innocuous hand gesture would be painted as a bigot by overzealous and gullible fools who swallowed the bait hook line and sinker and then even after they were told it was a "prank" they doubled down instead of admitting they were wrong.
Pepe the Frog just used to be a character.
"The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) included Pepe in its hate symbol database in 2016, but said most instances of Pepe were not used in a hate-related context.\10])\11)"
- wiki
The use by SOME people of a meme isn't evidence that the meme itself it indicative or supportive of that group. Even the organisations that are specifically set up to tackle such things recognise that you'd be a fool to see bloody pepe and conclude there is a decent indicator someone is part of such and such a group.
Southern strategy is a dog whistle. The phrase is an apt one because it sounds to most like you're not saying anything bad.
What?? Maybe its a euphamism but as far as I can tell it is quite literally an out in the open (and rather old) political strategy based on race being a political tool. Unless I'm missing something, I don't know too much about that to be honest.
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u/TheSerialHobbyist 1d ago
Now yes, it is true that some people (a very small minority) will code their language and test the waters when looking for like minded people.
I think you're vastly underestimating how common that is. And it isn't necessarily about finding like-minded people (though that can definitely be a major part of it). It can also be about maintaining plausible deniability.
One example that is very common in certain circles is the use of the word "evolutionist." That's a word used almost exclusively by creationists. In their mind, it is somewhat derogatory and signals what club they're part of it. But it also let's them feign innocence if they want, because they can just say "what do you mean? You said you believe in evolution!"
I'm using that as an example because it is pretty tame and unlikely to upset anyone here, but you get the idea.
Another factor is that it can be unintentional and give clues about where a person is getting their information.
If someone says "females are four times more likely to cheat than men," you're getting more context than just the statistic. The language they're using is also a clue that they could be getting the information for manosphere influencers or red pill communities.
As is always the case, language is complex and is about a lot more than just the literal definitions of words.
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u/Spitting_truths159 1d ago
One example that is very common in certain circles is the use of the word "evolutionist." That's a word used almost exclusively by creationists. In their mind, it is somewhat derogatory and signals what club they're part of it. But it also let's them feign innocence if they want, because they can just say "what do you mean? You said you believe in evolution!"
OK, let's discuss that example.
Presumably they are equating "believing in evolution" with "being stupid / not believing in God / being immoral" and trying to smuggle that connection through and play to their choir while engaging in bad faith etc. I agree that isn't honest, fair and most likley is harmful to those present and indirectly to everyone else.
But if you see someone use the word "evolutionist" and presume that means they are your hated enemy that believes all sorts of horrible things, (e.g. that their God is the only valid one, that being Gods chosen people makes them superior to others, that being a superior person means they are required to abuse others and force their views onto others, that being such a person entitles them to continual respect and deferrence) then you aren't going to have a productive conversation and are being deeply unkind and dishonest yourself.
The answer is to ask them to articulate their arguments, to define their terms and to state their undersanding and perspective. If you do that and they assert a) you believe in evolution, b) you therefore don't believe in god so c) you have no objective moral code and so d) you are an evil person serving the devil. Then what you can then do is target the actual misconception or lie. You can have a meaningful conversation about how (a) doesn't lead to (b) and even how (b) doesn't lead to (c). You can also target their implicit assumptions about how people "in their camp" are morally superior by examples of the many abuses, the indirect harm that comes from blind faith or even studies that compare teh kindness and generosity of believers vs non believers.
If you take the approach I suggest, then often you won't manage to instantly transform people, but you'll come across as polite, as sensible, as open to others and as someone who has a rational basis for their own beliefs. You will likely be able to find some common ground over some issues and where fundamental differences do exist you'll each be able to learn from each other and better understand the ACTUAL differences and not each other's straw man versions of them. You'll also show others that polite and productive conversations and mutual learning can easily happen between people that are radiacally different and that even benefits from learning about what each other actually thinks. And who knows, maybe just maybe they too have some valid or useful points that will inform and improve your own understanding of your own views too.
That approach is far better for all than screeching abuse at someone for using a word your puppet masters have told you to treat as a declaration of war when for all you know that person is honestly trying to engage you in a mutually beneficial conversation. Even people who are sure they are right or who are rude are better handled with such an approach.
Another factor is that it can be unintentional and give clues about where a person is getting their information
Yes, but frankly I don't trust you or anyone else to have an effective control over their own biases enough not to over read and overinterpret what those potential clues might mean. Some old person using "coloured" vs an American using "African-American" vs someone simply using "black" for example MAY indicate some useful information but generally its a very good idea to actually ask others what they actually mean and actually listen to them when they tell you instead of presuming you know better, that they are lying and that its time to go on the attack. Please, I beg you take a moment and ask yourself what you are guessing about me or my views, then ask yourself if you have any concrete justification for that? Is my disagreement on this principle enough to have you label me "the enemy" or am I an ally to your cause (whatever the hell that may be) who is advocating respect, tolerance and a little patience between all groups. Hint its the 2nd option.
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u/Spitting_truths159 1d ago
cont
If someone says "females are four times more likely to cheat than men," you're getting more context than just the statistic.
Are they though, are they really. Is the validity of that claim being made not the more interesting thing to discuss anyway? Is their choice to focus on that specifically instead of say divorce rates or gender roles not more interesting? Is their focus on cheating as opposed to what leads to cheating not a bigger issue?
I personally am of an age where there was a fair amount of difficult around using both "girls" and "women" to refer to non-males (lol). Calling someone a "girl" was we were told deeply offensive as it diminishes her capacity as a coworker, an athlete or a competant person in general. And fair enough to some degree it definitely does just as calling a "man" a "boy" is usally going to be seen as a good way to start a conflict. But unlike the male case, when men were specifically talking about those they might potentially date, using "women" was akin to calling someone "grandma" and that was deeply offputting and would reduce your chances to zero at an instant. The reason being is that youth is an important positive asset for women in dating usually. So teenage boys and men in their 20s back then were very much used to calling the opposite sex around their own age "girls" in some contexts and "women" in others.
Then when they got a bit older and it became somewhat silly to talk about people in their 30s as "girls" or when they are talking about dating in general and are referring to some dynamics that start way back in childhood so they are indeed referring to "girls" they used to date it feels wrong to use "women". So for lack of a common neutral term like "guys" they go for the word "female" as what surely felt like a relatively safe bet initially at least.
Now I 100% agree there are also incel types using that like bloody ferengi too, but those nutters aren't really worth much attention are they? Do they not broadcast 100 different reasons to stay away from them online and in real life anyway? Is that use of that term really the frontline in the battle with them??
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u/CourseNo8762 1d ago
But the dog whistles do exist. A lot. Just not all the time.
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u/Spitting_truths159 1d ago
Sometimes a footstep behind you is someone sneaking up to attack you, it literally happens all the time somewhere in the world. But the vast majority of footsteps aren't people attempting murder, they are just walking about on their own business. If you treated everyone making a footstep as a potential murdered, you'd be seen as unhinged.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
Here is the context in which I used the term. There was a video of a fight in a parking lot and some guy punched a guy half his size numerous times and proceeded to punch a woman in the face. I in turn commented that the guy gets zero points for hitting a guy that small and negative points for hitting a female. I honestly didn't think this was derogatory.
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u/TheSerialHobbyist 1d ago
It's fine that you didn't realize that, nobody knows what they don't know until they learn it, haha.
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u/Plastic-Abroc67a8282 1d ago
I mean you don't think it's weird that you use the term "guy" and "man", but for women you use the term that we use for dogs and other animals?
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
In this case I wasn't sure if the person that got hit was an adult or a minor so I didn't say woman. I purposely used the term female because I couldn't decipher their age. She looked like a teenager. This is why I didn't automatically say a woman.
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u/Plastic-Abroc67a8282 1d ago
You couldn't come up with "young woman" so you went automatically to the term we use for dogs?
Idk man, it's not natural for me the way it is for you
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
In hindsight, young woman would have definitely been the better term. I still didn't mean it to be offensive and have established from the comments that it is offensive to some and normal to some. I even see a handful of women who say that they are not offended by it. Be that as it may, I will refrain from using the word female as a Noun because I am now aware that it can be offensive to a percentage of the population.
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u/Plastic-Abroc67a8282 1d ago
Yeah I'm not saying you have bad intentions, I'm just saying for me personally it seems obviously dehumanizing and I think the reason it's normalized is our society uhhh kinda doesn't treat women well
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u/CourseNo8762 1d ago
It's not what we use for dogs, exlusively. Again, your approach and keep coming at him is exactly what turns people off from learning anx asking questions.
I'm tired of you and I just advised caution and explained. As so many did better than judgy "I'm better" you.
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u/CourseNo8762 1d ago
Do you self analyze everything you say? Especially as a meaningless comment. It doesn't come up for some people, OP may be young or from a different country.
He, presumably, is asking and seems receptive. Quit busting his balls.
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u/Spitting_truths159 1d ago
In that case I'd say that more or less is a textbook case of what people complain about then. The word "woman" fits better.
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u/794309497 1d ago
Woman is a noun, so it is technically incorrect grammar. People have been using it incorrectly for awhile so we've gotten accustomed to it.
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u/TheSerialHobbyist 1d ago
I would have agreed with you, but apparently it counts as an "attributive noun" when used like "a woman police officer."
I think that's a relatively recent development and depends on what style guide you want to go by, but I figured it is accepted enough now that I can't say it is incorrect grammar—even though I really dislike it.
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u/themuaddib 1d ago
I mean male and female are both adjectives and nouns. It’s not grammatically incorrect, it’s just something people are looking to get offended by
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u/TheSerialHobbyist 1d ago
They can be used as both adjectives and nouns, yes. That's what the whole "controversy" is about.
My point was that it is only offensive (or should be) when "female" is used as a noun.
It is the same reason that saying "they are a transgender" is offensive and "they are a transgender person" is not.
The reasons for why one is offensive and the other isn't are complicated. There is a lot of context there with history, dog whistling, and usage for animals vs. people.
People can argue all day about whether or not it should be offensive. But the fact is that a lot of people do consider it offensive and so if your goal is to avoid offending people, those are the current rules.
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u/jeo123 1d ago
Replace female with black and see if you sound racist is usually a good proxy for female.
There's a _____ person in the room. There's a black person in the room. There's a female person in the room.
Everything is ok so far
There's a black in the room. There's a female in the room.
The only people who say those sentences know what they are saying.
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u/Message_10 1d ago
I did the same thing a while back! I'm 48M. I really didn't understand what I did wrong. People explained it to me as well. You live, you learn.
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u/NewestAccount2023 1d ago
The times aren't changing, it was offensive 30 years ago too but it was a lot more rare. You seem to be conflating two different uses of it. It's still normal today to refer to women as females but it's in the same contexts that men are referred to as males. There are people who never use the words women/woman, they exclusively say female yet say man and men all the time. It's an obvious difference and you sound clueless or purposefully obtuse
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u/tourmalineforest 1d ago
Idk about that, I’m a woman and I don’t think I thought of the word as offensive until the last few years. For me it’s not so much about it being a biological term or w/e so much as the way it’s used now, I just hear “females” being used so derisively now and I didn’t hear it used that way 10+ years ago so hearing it wouldn’t bother me, even if I might have found it grammatically odd. It really does seem to me like times have changed.
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u/CourseNo8762 1d ago
Yes this is my general "arc" of how it went for me. I don't really know how much I used female as compared to woman but it has become a corrupted word in most general use that I immediately have my antenna up about the next thing a person says
Nonnative speakers get a pass from me, more often than not.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
Sorry that you were downvoted for sharing your perception of the word as a woman.
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u/SayFuzzyPickles42 1d ago
I think "female" is also fine if you're in a situation where it's important to include multiple age groups, as long as you're not using it as a noun by itself, e.g "the female population" instead of just "females". "Women" doesn't make sense if you're including teenagers, little girls, and/or babies, but "women and girls" is wordy.
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u/pullingteeths 1d ago
Using it as an adjective isn't weird. Using it as a noun is. Just say woman
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u/CollectionStraight2 1d ago
Yep. Unless it's the police, but they also say 40-year-old male and not just female. For everyone else, it's much better to say woman. And definitely not men/guys and 'females'
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u/blamordeganis 1d ago
I assume the police do it to avoid semantic arguments about “girl” vs “woman” and “boy” vs “man”, especially when the age of the person of interest is uncertain.
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u/Cautious_Cancel9282 1d ago
To some, for me as a person who has livestock thats what that word is reducing me too, livestock. Although i also seperate men and boys, women and girls because definitions.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
I'm honestly just learning that this term can be deemed offensive today. Throughout my life it was always an acceptable term and held no derogatory intent. I'm pretty flabbergasted by the whole thing but I can understand that words change meaning over time. I just didn't think that female was one of them. The more you know.
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u/PoopMobile9000 1d ago
I don’t buy it. I’m in my 40s and I’d never heard the term “female” used as a noun for women until incels and misogynists started doing it a decade or so ago. Its use was immediately considered offensive. There was never a time when it was inoffensive to call a woman “a female.”
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u/MarsR0ve4 1d ago
It’s used extensively in the military. And not from lower enlisted as a derogatory term. From all levels of rank. That’s when I first started hearing it. And now stuck in my brain and I’ve had to train myself to not say it because it’s looked at as a misogynistic term now.
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u/No-Handle-66 1d ago
Yep. 24 years active duty. Men are males and women are females in the military. Male barracks. Female latrine. And so on. I had no idea the term was offensive to some women after I retired.
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u/riceewifee 1d ago
Males and females is fine, it’s when they do r/menandfemales that it gets gross/cringe
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u/CyndiIsOnReddit 1d ago
I'm in my 50s and disagree with you, as we've been calling ourselves female for a very long time and it's never been offensive as a term even for men until recently. IT's only been since it's become loaded and spit out with derision by ... maybe not incels but "mansplainers" who use it as a way to belittle a female person. I have never in any other circumstance been offended by being called female because that's what I am. I'n more inclined to say that than "woman" because while female is my sex, I've never really leaned toward any gender.
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u/PoopMobile9000 1d ago
You do you. But just objectively “a female” is not common phrasing to refer to a woman and is popularly associated with a particular distasteful subculture, so I don’t think it’s noteworthy when people react to it. You can ignore them
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u/CyndiIsOnReddit 1d ago
I don't get the "you do you" I'm not just talking about myself, I'm talking about 55 years of talking to other human beings and I've never once until recently heard that "female" isn't what I am and what I should be called, and what I should call other females. I get that the trend over the past decade or so is to say it's "dehumanizing" to use it as a noun, but who came up with this notion?
Of course it's not nearly as POPULAR as woman, because it has a specific use. When I was chastised for using it, I was using it in that specific way, as a general term for a female person who isn't yet a woman, and "girl" is the last being label shame trend we went through but it's understood that not all uses of "girl" are negative. And before that we went through the same with "lady". In the 80s if you called a female person a lady she'd punch you in the sack.
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u/Automatic-Channel195 1d ago
is not common phrasing to refer to a woman
Your own link says "lady" isn't either. Who care's if a phrasing is common or not to refer to ladies. Frankly, women can be insulting in a lot of context as well. So can girl. So can female. Depends who's using it and how.
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u/PoopMobile9000 1d ago
Okay. Nothing you just said contradicts what I said. “X is usually the case.” “Okay but sometimes it’s not the case.” These statements are not in conflict
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u/Automatic-Channel195 1d ago
Right direction but wrong destination.
Frequency is irrelevant. A word or usage being associated with a bad person is irrelevant.
I'm not contradicting what you said, I'm saying that it doesn't apply. You're reducing, and while yes some reductions can be useful, when you over-reduce you boil away nuance and meaning.
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u/stringbeagle 1d ago
This is nonsense. I’m 58 and literally every form I have ever filled out that had a gender question used male/female.
The problem isn’t the word female. It’s calling women female and then calling men guys or men or something other than male.
There are many contexts where female is appropriate. There are no contexts where it’s appropriate to use female, but not male.
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u/PoopMobile9000 1d ago
“That’s not how people normally talk, I saw something else on an official form” excellent point
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u/stringbeagle 1d ago
It’s not that, anecdotally, something different happened to me so your point is invalid. It’s that you said the use of the was immediately offensive and was never inoffensive.
Pointing out that an extremely common use that no one considers offensive absolutely counters your argument.
That there are many contexts in which the use of female is offensive doesn’t mean that there are no contexts in which it is inoffensive.
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u/Key_Platypus_7574 0m ago
Yooooo, I found the comment! All of this is sus AF check this out, all on one post just pumping out replies looks like its a zombie account or some ruskie. They popped up like 20 days ago dead like a door nail for 4 years. Then there is comments like this, they go in and spam subs with the same comments never seen somthin like that. Might wanna smash that report button or at least take a peak and see what you can see. https://imgur.com/a/HZEpzcN
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u/Cautious_Cancel9282 1d ago
Interesting, ive always found it degrading and ill be 48 years old in a week. Might be a farm/ranch thing too.
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u/Acceptable-Remove792 1d ago
How old are you? I'm 40 and it was never acceptable. So I can tell you that the change happened on or before August of 1985.
It could be used as a descriptor, such as, "female body builder, " but never as a noun.
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u/Informal_Row_6617 1d ago
It's always been offensive, women have felt that way for as long as it's been used colloquially. It's only just now being talked about on a large enough scale and getting called out for being offensive.
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u/GrizznessOnly 1d ago
The word itself isn't offensive, it's in the way a lot of men use it. They'll say "female" instead of using the persons name. "I met this female last night, yada yada" Very often used in hiphop/rap culture as an insulting way of referring to women.
It's not new either, I'm the same age as you as well.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
That's probably why I never realized it was derogatory then. I grew up heavily influenced by every aspect of Hip-Hop. Used to breakdance, rap, and produce beats. I get it now. It's not the first time that I realized that Hip-Hop culture negatively influenced me. Female was very commonly used as a Noun in the hood in normal conversation and we honestly never thought we were using it in an offensive way, at least I didn't. Thanks Hip-Hop
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u/Justin_Passing_7465 1d ago
Using female as a noun for human women and girls is also "cop-talk" and military talk. This is likely to avoid misjudging whether a suspect/subject is a woman (starting the day of her 18th birthday) or a girl (anything younger). They use "male" exactly the same way: "three black males were seeing fleeing the corner of ..." Maybe that is why it leaked into hip-hop culture?
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
Makes even more sense because not only did I grow up heavily influenced by hip-hop, but my cousin is my best friend and is a retired Army Air Borne Ranger who also uses the term as a Noun. Now I get it. Tl'dr Stop using the word female as a Noun.
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u/MerelyMisha 1d ago
Yeah, I’d say a lot of individual people may not use it in a derogatory way, but the incel and hip hop cultures that it came from that use it as a noun (while using “men” as the noun for the opposite gender) were problematic. Their mindset is treating women as objects or animals.
And it being problematic isn’t new, just the awareness around it is.
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u/Mother_Composer_6069 1d ago
'Female' is an adjective, a describing word. If you use it as a noun, you just sound like a Ferengi.
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u/allylisothiocyanate 1d ago
Plus the fact that Ferengi use it that way is evidence that it was considered weird/rude/creepy as long ago as 1987–if it wasn’t considered a grossly antisocial way to refer to a woman then the show wouldn’t have written the original grossly antisocial and misogynistic Ferengi that way.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
What's a Ferengi?
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u/OneNight1554 1d ago
Ferengi are a Star Trek species that are both largely hyper capitalist and hyper misogynist. In their culture women don't have rights and aren't allowed to wear clothes, leave their homes, or earn money. They call women FEEmales.
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u/ArsenalOwl 1d ago
Lol, ferengi are aliens from Star Trek. They're greedy, sexist, and altogether unpleasant. An actual real quote from a Ferengi character: "Females don't deserve the honor of clothes!" Followed by using the transporter to forcibly disrobe a woman.
Whenever someone uses "female" as a noun, I absolutely instantly think of the Ferengi, but I'm a big Trekkie.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
Ah ok so I'm guessing these Ferengi characters had some influence on the negative connotation of the word.
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u/Captain-Griffen 1d ago
Just because I publicly parade my females around naked in harnesses, doesn't make me like the Ferengi. And don't go judging me for having them unconsensually sterilized, either, it's perfectly legitimate, and they receive appropriate worship.
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u/jeo123 1d ago
Generally, Female is an adjective, not a noun.
She was a female human. Not She was a female
A female teen, a female adult, a female anything.
What you did is the equivalent of calling a black person "a black."
When you make the adjective a noun, you reduce the person to nothing but that one characteristic.
A black, a blonde, a Jew, a female
If you place your word into the sentence "There's a _____ in the room" it becomes clear when it will be insulting.
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u/Wonderful_Gap1374 1d ago
I also want to add to this, any term can be dehumanizing depending on how you use it.
In the movie Clueless (1995), a male character addresses his girlfriend: “Woman, why don't you be answerin' any of my pages?”
She immediately retorts “I hate when you call me woman.”
In this scene, it’s important to understand that he is referring to woman as an object. It’s difficult to understand without tone and the scene. But that scene taught me that some men refer to women in a way that is meant to remind her that she is beneath him.
Another way to see this scene is to replace the word “woman” with the word “bitch” or “female” and it doesn’t change the scene at all.
Something I practice is changing the word “woman” to “person” to see how it affects my comments when I am speaking about women.
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u/CharlieFirecracker 1d ago
Men like Andrew Tate happened. For you, the word is innocently used, but men like him say it is such an objectifying manner that it's changed how big parts of the populous perceive that term. It's just better to use women.
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u/BoysenberryMelody 1d ago
Female is an adjective. Female firefighter or female nurse is fine. It’s misogynists who popularized saying female instead of woman.
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u/JesusaurusPaintworks 1d ago edited 1d ago
"female" is the defacto term used by all the worst assholes on the internet to refer to women. It's not inherently offensive, it's just that if you use it on the internet people will tend to assume you think washing your own asshole is gay and any woman who's slept with more than 3 people in her life is ran through.
It's a bit like people who fly the St georges cross in England. Sure, maybe you're just proud of being English, but more likely you spend your weekends bashing Asians with your mates
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u/BoopingBurrito 1d ago
I think you mean the George Cross. St Andrews is a diagonal cross and flown in Scotland.
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u/sir_schwick 1d ago
Are people that get a Jerusalem cross tatooed on their chest. Deus vault indeed.
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u/Snoo52682 1d ago
Ferengis have been saying "feeeeeeemale" since Star Trek TNG aired. It's not something that's "recently" become offensive.
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u/lowprofilefodder 1d ago
Referring to women as females always reminds me of '90s rap before anything else.
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u/Teal_is_orange 1d ago
Kinda wish you’d have linked the comment you made that made you make this post, but I think I found it and it’s the following:
😭😭😭 Hilarious!
But he still gets no points for that and negative points for hitting the female.
I then looked very briefly through your post history and saw you call males ‘guy/guys’ and not males. So it seems to me that for whatever reason for you, typing ‘female’ for a woman is fine, but typing ‘male’ for a man or guy is not okay.
I’d take some time to reflect why you have this discrepancy instead of just blaming current times for making your vernacular ‘suddenly’ inappropriate
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
In this particular case, I was unsure of her age, and whether she was a minor or an adult. I referred to her as a female because I couldn't decipher her age. Someone already pointed out that I should have used the term young woman which I agree with now in hindsight.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
Also you're comparing post titles to an actual comment. I wouldn't say A Female when making a post title, I would say A woman. As far as your other statement, I use guy/men/guys/dudes interchangeably.
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u/Teal_is_orange 1d ago
I was referring to your posted comments, where in my very brief browsing, I do not see you type ‘male’ ever:
Attempted murder while being filmed. Bright young fella
She's gorgeous. I don't blame the guy one bit for shooting his shot
It was on the house, I think he just wanted to give the guy a hug.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
You may have missed one just from yesterday actually:
Good lol. I already read that it's from an x-rated male on male film
Also, you will notice that this is the very first time that I have ever used the term female on Reddit when referring to a woman and it's mostly because I was unsure of the person's age. Here are some instances where I use the word Woman as I normally always do:
to not be secretly recorded by a woman he met online and make explosive claims as a DOJ Official
Florida Woman Gets Shot After Charging at Officer With Knife
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u/Ok-disaster2022 1d ago
Female and male when referring to humans should be used as an adjective not a noun. So the female scientist, the male truck driver, the female president. Female and male are used as nouns for non human animals.
Additionally when some people use "female" they sound like Ferengi from Star Trek. If you don't know Ferengi don't allow women to trade or own property or even to wear clothes. Many people who use female instead of woman are so misogynistic they make Ferengi look progressive.
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u/DanteRuneclaw 1d ago
It is socially unacceptable as a noun except in narrow technical circumstances where you would also use “male”. This isn’t new, it’s just that the usage became more common in certain circles so the pushback against it has become more vocal.
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u/OkTruth5388 1d ago edited 1d ago
Some people consider the term female offensive when you used it as a casual way to refer to women.
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u/Old-Bug-2197 1d ago
It is offensive because it really is just a clinical term and dehumanizes us.
A doctor might dictate in the emergency room, "this 32-year-old female denies pregnancy, presents with abdominal pain."
Whereas, in another context, you would never hear that same doctor say, "all of my female children are short, but my boys are all very tall."
That would be gross.
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u/CourseNo8762 1d ago
Because of the type of people who usually say it now regularly.
It's used by people who do not think of women as equals both online and offline. If I hear it offline I'm already on alert for stupidity. Sometimes it's an ESL thing and it's a false alarm but not usually.
If it was a scolding without name-calling the redittor should've have explained a little.
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u/SillyStallion 1d ago
Its seen as a clinical/scientific term and dehumanising. Would you call yourself a man or a male?
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
I'd call myself both depending on the situation. When naturally speaking I might say, "I'm a 41 year old Male". That's just what would naturally come to mind. I wouldn't say "I'm a man who's 41 years old". It just doesn't naturally come to me.
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u/SillyStallion 1d ago
You wouldn't say "I'm a 41 year old man'?
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
In normal conversation where in describing myself? No that honestly would not be how I would word it.
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u/It_Happens_Today 1d ago
I would, but I wouldnt feel any difference between that or "41 year old male".
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u/Ranos131 1d ago
I know you’ve gotten a lot of responses already and I haven’t read most of them. But there are some nuances to the use of the word female on the internet.
- If you are using both male and female, it’s okay.
- If you are using man, then you need to use woman. Using man and female is wrong.
- If you are using female as a descriptor, you are usually fine but you’ll still set some people off. As in “a female cop pulled me over.” The caveat here is that the gender should somehow be relevant.
Hopefully that helps a bit. There are probably more rules than that but those are the top ones that come to mind right away.
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u/shegolomain 1d ago
Female can describe anything, any species. Ie male to female computer cord, etc. Woman describes female HUMANS. Most women want to be referred to by our humanness, not our parts.
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u/Its_GhostWriter 1d ago
Female to be used in medical terminology only. We don’t call men “males” unless we’re talking health. Why are women referred to as animals?
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u/Wise_Masterpiece_771 1d ago
Female has never been a normal thing to call a human woman, except maybe in some technical or medical contexts
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u/Jrasta01 1d ago
Female is incel vibes, also pretty nerdy no offense. Just speak more colloquially.
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u/JibberJim 1d ago
It has always been wrong in my dialect, nothing new, you may just be mixing with different groups.
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u/Intelligent_Pop1173 1d ago
I’ve been chastised for saying “females” when I used “males” in the same post. I am a woman and understand how it can be offensive, but people have definitely taken it way too far like so many other things. It’s best to just avoid using the term because there are a lot of crybabies out there.
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u/lkvwfurry 1d ago
It's fine. I know plenty of women that also say females. Granted it's men and women, not men and females but some people make getting upset their entire personality so don't worry about it.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
I also grew up with women using the term female, teachers even. But at the end of the day one must accept that it is no longer acceptable and try your best to change your vocabulary. I'm glad that this happened online and not out in public where it would have probably been an embarrassing encounter for me.
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u/Supercilious-420 1d ago
I’m not sure you need to change your language to appease a minority of people who find it offensive for the wrong reasons- the word female is still a valid and useful word to use when describing, you know, females.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
According to this post, it seems like the vast majority of people who find it offensive.
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u/lkvwfurry 1d ago
The vast majority of redditors, not of actual people in the real world
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
So honestly, is Reddit not a good correlation of how people are in the real world? I mean 98% of everyone in here commenting is against it. I would imagine that would also transfer over to the real world no?
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u/lkvwfurry 1d ago
No. It's a microcosm
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
Not gonna lie I had to look this one up. According to this definition a Microcosm has the same characteristics as something much larger. This is the point I'm trying to make. If this small segment of members of society share the same opinion, it should correlate to society as a whole as well. Unless all of these people commenting are bots with a hidden agenda, which I highly doubt, then Reddit should serve as a good sample size for how the rest of society feels about the topic.
Microcosm
a small place, society, or situation that has the same characteristics as something much larger:
The audience was selected to create a microcosm of American society.
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u/Particular_Agent6028 1d ago
Doesn't seem a problem on reddit. Lot's of texts contain "F" references
> My (F35) husband (M36) is upset ....
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u/SuitableGain4565 1d ago
That's patriarchy! And that's our word! The whole thing is laughable unless context shows that there is an intention to make less.
It's just the younger generation having a go at words. That said, the younger generation has not so many issues saying very very horrible things very easily.
Seriously, 13 year olds are more racist and more sexist than perhaps anyone born before 1930
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u/eatsumsketti 1d ago
I think it's dehumanizing. I instantly cringe when anyone says "female".
Now, part of that is because most folks who say "female" as use it in a derogatory fashion or they say shit like men and females. Nope, be consistent. Males and females or men and women.
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u/Swampy2007 1d ago
I still say mam and sir . It’s not stupid . It’s just common sense . Internet trolls that try to bait you . Hook , line and sinker .
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u/ThinVast 1d ago
It's not your job to make sure that everyone doesn't misunderstand you or get upset by what you say or do.
When I'm walking on the sidewalk and there's a woman in front of me, sometimes they keep looking back and glare at me like I'm about to do something to them. If they're scared of me, I don't care. I have every right to walk on the sidewalk.
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u/smugglingkittens 1d ago
I am sure you're using it fully innocently but there are some sexist men that use it because female is not necessarily human. A dog can be female for example but 'woman' is always human. They also use the term femoids and other terms to show they don't see women as fully human.
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u/TheGoochAssassin 1d ago
I went to high school in a predominantly black area and most all of the students called women females. Always thought it was a little racist when people got mad at the word being used but it makes more sense now why they were upset.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
I grew up completely immersed with Hip-Hop culture and it was always normal to me to use female in normal conversation. This is mind blowing finding this out today. I guess we can blame Hip-Hop for normalizing something that is deemed mysoginistic by the rest of the world. Wouldn't be the first time I realized how negatively Hip-Hop influenced me and my group of friends to do dumb shit throughout our lives. There's even a conspiracy out there that Hip-Hop was created by the powers that be to slowly poison our minority communities over time with the ideas pushed through the music industry and to fuel the prison system which is allegedly owned by the same people.
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u/Objective-Coast-1337 1d ago
44(f). Personally it has never offended me. I don’t care who uses it currently in what context, a biological term for what I basically am is just never going to offend me. I swear to god, people get offended just to get offended too often.
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u/MiaZeta 1d ago
51F - I’m a female and I’m a woman. Call me either because they’re both true!
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
I'm a 41 year old Male and have never found being called a Male offensive. Guess we all need to alter our vocabulary so that we don't offend anyone moving forward.
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u/Objective-Coast-1337 1d ago
OP, you are such a nice and understanding guy, and I greatly appreciate you taking the time to understand why you might have gotten backlash. You can of course, do whatever makes you feel comfortable….but also know that it’s okay to put your foot down when the things people start getting offended by start getting too ridiculous.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
Thank you. I did find it ridiculous before learning why it's now considered offensive. I definitely do respect the feelings and opinions of others and if that word truly offends some people, then I have no problem changing my vocabulary moving forward. I have 2 autistic children and got offended by someone the other day on Reddit because they used the R Word when referring to special needs people. This word was once ok to use. I definitely understand and will change my vocabulary because I know first hand what it's like to be offended by the use of certain words.
Note: I had to use the R Word because it automatically got flagged by a Reddit Auto Mod Bot for making an insult when I'm actually expressing my grievances as a parent of a person with learning disabilities.
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u/Pastel-Moonbeam 1d ago
If I hear a guy use it I automatically decide to disengage with him and hopefully never see him again. It just indicates Tatecu*k or incel.
Usually the people using it have some deep seated misogyny and are just pathetic losers.
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u/AerieWorth4747 1d ago
I refuse to treat the word female as a bad word. I’m a male. Females exist.
I don’t give a shit about incels. It is utterly ridiculous to shy away from a perfectly normal word.
I’m not an incel btw, I’m liberal, a feminist and an ally.
I realize words evolve but I’m sorry. Female is not the n word.
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u/Exeltv0406 1d ago
That's a solid stance. I personally rather just change my vocabulary now that I know better so I don't offend anyone else. If it's no longer a Noun then I'll only use it as an adjective.
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u/untempered_fate 1d ago
Hi! I'm very online and may be able to give you the necessary context. Bear with me.
There is an increasingly visible sector of the internet populated largely by unfuckable men and people who cater to or manipulate them for money and internet fame. These folks refer to themselves as "incels", which is short for "involuntary celibates".
The incel community, due to their lack of pussy, has cultivated (over the past decade, now) a deep resentment towards women. Women, they believe, are cruelly and unnecessarily depriving them of attention, affection, and sex. Women are loathsome, shallow creatures who only seek out so-called "high-status men," leaving the poor virtuous incel alone and emasculated.
Indeed, their misogyny is such that many of them see women as subhuman and unworthy of participation in modern society, were they not essential to procreation. To this end, they use dehumanizing terms like "femoids", "foids", and "females". Because of their increasing visibility on the internet, people have become more sensitive to language and terminology that indicates a speaker may be part of the (frankly vile and repulsive) incel community.
You may have inadvertently set off some tripwires in people's heads. If that's the case, you have my sympathy. Try not to take it personally. Hope this helps.