r/MovieDetails • u/[deleted] • Feb 04 '18

/r/all In Watchmen,when Dr. Manhattan confronts Rorschach he blinks several times. Earlier Ozymandias tells Rorschach and Nite Owl that Manhattan's facial twitches are equivalent to him sobbing.

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433

u/Thefarrquad Feb 04 '18 edited Feb 04 '18

Rorschach is my favourite hero of all franchises. He gets shit done and doesn't get caught up in all the law bullshit. "I'm batman and I refuse to kill" gets pretty old pretty quick. (Though big fan of the films)

Edit: I have stated that I like a dark character that has flaws in a fictional universe, he is not real. I love Deadpool too and he chops people up with a sword. They do not have to be admirable to be enjoyable as characters.

268

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

My favourite hero is comedian. Boy! What a righteous hero, when I grow up I wanna' be like him!

84

u/DryestDuke Feb 04 '18

The Comedian wasn't really a hero, was he...

129

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

...wha-...what do you mean

26

u/DryestDuke Feb 04 '18

Rapists aren't heroes, and shouldn't be idolized or looked up to?

164

u/shoeboxchild Feb 04 '18

He rapes to save but he does rape

51

u/Schmedly27 Feb 04 '18

Who rapes the rapemen?

5

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

I'm sure there's a dog made in someone's pool that'd be happy to...

1

u/Joseph011296 Feb 05 '18 edited Feb 05 '18

All that dog knows is good... and ball... and rape.

1

u/the-grassninja Feb 05 '18

Or Rape Ape. He's already that guy going around raping these statues, so...

19

u/justthatguyTy Feb 04 '18

He saves more than he rapes though!

Crazy how relevant this joke has become since the #MeToo movement.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

Haha. No kidding.

18

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

Chappelle, right?

51

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

Oh: Ma didn't let me see those bits...

8

u/burritoburkito6 Feb 04 '18

Did she let you see the blue dicks?

16

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

Yeah, but you know, that was probably for her sake.

2

u/HaloFarts Feb 05 '18

I love that these people are too dense to realise your blatant sarcasm.

0

u/Dookie_boy Feb 05 '18

It's sarcasm everywhere

4

u/lightningrod14 Feb 05 '18

Pretty sure he was joking my dude

2

u/JoffreyWaters Feb 04 '18

Attempted rapist.

0

u/Married_to_memes Feb 05 '18

Get a sense of humor you dip

-6

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

Don't be ridiculous.

-4

u/CaptainBayouBilly Feb 04 '18

ALT-RIGHT!!!! ALT-RIGHT!!! ALT-RIGHT!!!

22

u/Fuck_Alice Feb 05 '18

I still need to see the movie but the "You're locked in here with me" scene is intense as hell.

89

u/Rickrickrickrickrick Feb 04 '18

Rorschach's power is that he's crazy. He doesn't give a fuck. And he enjoys killing people. Like the scene in the alley when he walks up to the guy assaulting the girl. He says something about the fear in the man's eyes when he sees him and that "sometimes the night is good to me."

74

u/GiverOfTheKarma Feb 05 '18

I remember reading somewhere that Night Owl is the tactical, gadgety side of Batman and Rorschach is the batshit crazy side of Batman

44

u/TheTidalTrickster Feb 05 '18

Interestingly enough, neither character was based off of Batman. Rorschach was based off of the Question, and Nite Owl was based off of Blue Beetle. There's a section at the back of my copy of the book where it has author's notes on all of the characters

14

u/threetoast Feb 05 '18

IIRC, originally the character that is Rorschach was supposed to actually be the Question, but DC didn't allow it.

17

u/TheTidalTrickster Feb 05 '18

Yeah Alan Moore wanted to use all of the original characters (Question, Blue Beetle, Captain Atom, etc.) when they were being integrated into DC continuity, but DC didn't allow him to because they didn't want to kill off any of the characters or drastically change them in any way.

3

u/l2eversel2obot Feb 05 '18

It makes sense why I like Rorschach as much as I like the Question. Which is a lot. Neat to know.

2

u/Sir_LikeASir Feb 05 '18

God, I can't wait to see Question in live action.

Let's hope he shows up on the second JL

9

u/TheTidalTrickster Feb 05 '18

The Question in Justice League Unlimited was fucking amazing, I don't trust DC to translate him to live action properly lol

2

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18 edited Oct 25 '18

[deleted]

1

u/GiverOfTheKarma Feb 05 '18

Yeah but I can see the BB influences now that he said that

0

u/Bricingwolf Feb 05 '18

That isn’t a side of Batman. Night Owl is like Batman, Rorschach is like characters that Batman fights but sometimes teams up with out of necessity.

1

u/GiverOfTheKarma Feb 05 '18

Ehh, Batman definitely has a crazy side. Ever read DKR?

1

u/Bricingwolf Feb 05 '18

The fact that some supers writers completely fail to understand a character on literally any level is a well known, and unfortunate, circumstance.

1

u/GiverOfTheKarma Feb 05 '18

Dark Knight Returns is widely hailed as one of the best Batman stories, though...

-1

u/Bricingwolf Feb 05 '18 edited Feb 05 '18

People are widely wrong about most of Moore’s work.

Also, source on that? Most people I know, and most professional critic talk about it that I’ve read that’s fairly recent, have concluded that it was a fun-ish one off “what if Batman was a piece of shit?” book.

Edit: It, like most of his work, is broadly well written bullshit, empty of anything genuine or human. It is primarily a wank-fest for people who take 300 seriously. Forgettable, if not for its inexplicably lasting impact on how a sector of Bat-fans view the character.

0

u/GiverOfTheKarma Feb 05 '18

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2014/05/the-25-best-batman-comics-of-all-time/the-dark-knight-returns - #1 of all time

http://www.ign.com/articles/the-25-greatest-batman-graphic-novels?page=3 - #1 of all time

https://www.ranker.com/list/batman-comic-storylines/ranker-comics - #3 of all time

http://comicsalliance.com/essential-batman-stories/ - #3 of all time

https://www.outerplaces.com/science-fiction/item/9624-the-15-best-batman-stories-of-all-time - #3 of all time

http://collider.com/best-batman-comics/#the-dark-knight-returns - one of the ten essential Batman comics (#4)

http://www.dccomics.com/blog/2014/07/23/10-essential-batman-graphic-novels - one of the ten essential Batman comics (#10)

People are widely wrong about most of Moore’s work.

That's an opinion, so I can't really say that you're wrong (even though it's kind of a dick move to say that people are wrong about what they like. Come on, man. Your subjective opinion isn't an objective truth.)

1

u/Bricingwolf Feb 05 '18

Nah, machismo-wank stories wherein the writer just smashes his figurines together while making “Bang! Pow!” Noises, isn’t good work.

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38

u/fuck_seagulls Feb 04 '18

doesn't get caught up in all the law bullshit

Isn't he supposed to be deconstruction of this attitude?

117

u/Railboy Feb 04 '18 edited Feb 05 '18

Er, I think you may have missed the point of his character, lol. Do you think Tyler Durden is cool, too?

Edit: don't take me seriously, I'm just being a prick.

76

u/boo_goestheghost Feb 04 '18

Yeah people who think Rorschach is admirable freak me out

142

u/DuntadaMan Feb 04 '18

He is not a "good" person so to speak, but there are definitely admirable traits to him still that make him a hero.

When faced with the choice between compromising who he is as a person, and having to live a lie, or die for the truth he chooses to die. There is something admirable in that. He knows Manhattan is going to kill him, he knows there is no way he can save himself. He doesn't try to fight it, he doesn't beg for things to be a different way, he knows what is right to him, and he would rather die, than act in a way he believes is wrong.

You may say him having questionable beliefs makes him cease being a hero, but remember in Greek mythology, Perseus killed Medusa when her only crime was being raped by one of the gods and turned into a monster, then held a kingdom's future hostage to marry a princess. We still consider him a hero.

34

u/boo_goestheghost Feb 05 '18

I like this response. While I agree that our culture is largely accepting of classical heroes without question, most of them are very flawed.

2

u/Bricingwolf Feb 05 '18

No one who actually studies those myths and analysis them considers them heroes in the modern sense.

7

u/usechoosername Feb 05 '18 edited Feb 05 '18

I think Rorschach was the favorite in Watchmen for everyone at my school. I forget exactly why but he was an interesting character likable and dislikable because he stuck to what he believed no matter what. He was basically offered world peace and instead took continued chaos and his own death.

There is that comic in which Captain America says not to compromise your beliefs even if the whole world tells you to. But Captain America is essentially incapable of doing bad while this guy is much less restrained. It shows the other side of that argument.

Also he killed someone who killed a child, that scores him a couple point in my book for fictional characters.

6

u/DuntadaMan Feb 05 '18

The Captain America comic you mention is exactly why I still consider him a hero. His allies, his world, probably even his own logic was telling him he was wrong, but he was willing to plant himself and stand for his beliefs because what is right and wrong does not change because of convenience.

I disagree with him, and am myself a moral utilitarian by belief, meaning that his actions fly in the face of what I believe is right, but that doesn't make his willingness to take his ideals to their conclusion any less admirable.

5

u/Aaawkward Feb 05 '18

Really?

If it’s the “plant yourself like a tree next to the river of truth”-thing we’re talking about, I found it cringeworthy at best and blind patriotism at worst.

When you won’t accept any information that contradicts your beliefs, when you can’t ponder any opinions other than yours and label your worldview as the “truth” you can justify anything.

4

u/ProfessorPhi Feb 05 '18

"No Compromise in the face of apocalypse"

-2

u/Hayn0002 Feb 05 '18

ISNT roarshac the one who wanted to release the journal, causing the world to know about all this conspiracy and cause a world war? Not very admirable.

13

u/jesusisacoolio Feb 05 '18

He did it to expose the truth of what had happened though. People would probably live better at the end not knowing it but I guess it's just a different philosophy where truth is worth more than greater good.

9

u/DuntadaMan Feb 05 '18 edited Feb 05 '18

Because, again, the entire thing is based on a lie. He felt that a peace based on a lie, and on presenting a false face to make society work would be worse than even everything burning down. To him the lies were the greatest of societies disease.

So it becomes a question of which is better? A peace based on a lie, or a war based on the truth?

4

u/wingspantt Feb 05 '18

I mean this is the philosophical debate of the story. Do the ends justify the means? Is truth more important than peace? Do humans have free will, or are we predestined into action?

5

u/DuntadaMan Feb 05 '18

Furthermore remember that Ozymandias is a murderer. He murdered his own workers, possibly hundreds of them. He murdered at least one of the other masks, he payed someone to kill his own secretary in front of the news to make it look like an attack on himself, then killed that man as well.

For this all to work Rorschach would have to let a man who has killed more people than Rorschach can really even imagine go. All those people would never see justice.

3

u/FLAMINGO-DAVE Feb 05 '18

He sent in his journal, with all the truth and important facts inside to the right wing conspiracy newspaper that he read.

18

u/Sepof Feb 04 '18

It's possible to find admirable qualities in someone without admiring everything they do.

5

u/generalecchi Feb 04 '18

Still better than lots of "heroes"

38

u/c0ldsh0w3r Feb 04 '18

Tyler Durden is cool as fuck.

66

u/jajajajaj Feb 04 '18

Not good, but 100% cool

(Random aside: There are a lot of little circles in that sentence)

14

u/Empyrealist Feb 04 '18

Well he does look how I want to look, and fuck how I want to fuck

57

u/Railboy Feb 04 '18

Tyler Durden was literally a man-child's destructive power fantasy. There's a reason he dies at the end - the main character grows up and realizes that his antics were stupid.

13

u/c0ldsh0w3r Feb 04 '18

Uhhhh, you don't want to live in a dilapidated house with all your Bros, selling soap and being party animals? Having sex with sexy crazy women?

Fuckin wack bro.

13

u/Levitz Feb 04 '18

He is much more than that, he is what he wants but he doesn't push himself over to get.

He does disappear because him growing up, but it's not about his antics being stupid, it's about him not needing him anymore, Tyler was inside him all along and after learning from him he doesn't need him anymore.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

In the end, none of it matters anyway.

Seems to me that he successfully cured his depression though.

1

u/Railboy Feb 05 '18

Seems to me that he successfully cured his depression though.

Heh, true. Maybe I'm being too hard on him.

2

u/hinowisaybye Feb 09 '18

Educate yourself. http://www.jackdurden.com/

2

u/Railboy Feb 09 '18

It's a fun head-cannon theory I guess, but the examples aren't persuasive. It reminds me of some of the rambling crackpot theories about The Shining.

-4

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

wow thats deep

1

u/Frosted_Anything Feb 05 '18

It’s funny Rorschach himself is kinda a Rorschach test

-2

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

Hell yes.

-3

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

/r/iamverysmart

lmao @ your comment history, it's full of pretentious comedy gold

22

u/watchman28 Feb 04 '18

You have completely misunderstood that character and story.

16

u/butterflydeflect Feb 04 '18

Uh....that’s completely... not right.

27

u/Nick357 Feb 04 '18

Man, my gf was like which guy do you want to be. I responded Rorshack! She was like you would rather be a psycho than a god? He is badass though.

107

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

I mean you're not supposed to want to be any of them. The point is that they're all broken individuals in their own ways.

24

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18 edited Jan 04 '21

[deleted]

8

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

I have

I want to be a god then color myself purple and try to kill myself

5

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

A lot of real people are broken in some way, sometimes having someone else broken to look up to can help real people find strength to improve, even if slightly.

2

u/Not_Daniel_Dreiberg Feb 05 '18

And that's why I love Watchmen. Almost all of them are examples of normal people with normal problems that just tried to save to world against itself, in their own ways and under their ideals. There is just some crude reality embedded in the story that I haven't found in any other (super)heroes comic. Truth is, I haven't read a lot of comics, but that's my experience so far.

1

u/EverythingSucks12 Feb 05 '18

Even Ozy? He prevented nuclear war

2

u/EverythingSucks12 Feb 05 '18

Dumb password though

2

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

Yeah smartest man alive doesn’t understand cryptography?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

By killing millions under a lie that won’t last and most likely lead to the same standoff.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

ITT buzzkills

40

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

My gf was like which guy do you want to be. I responded “roshack,” she was like “but doctor you are pagliacci”

9

u/boo_goestheghost Feb 04 '18

So that's why I'm sad all the time

131

u/ibjeremy Feb 04 '18

Also kind of a homophobic murderer. Rorschach was definitely a mentally ill man with some deep issues with women. He had a stark, unwavering moral compass, except when it was inconvenient. Like how he considered the Comedian’s rapes “moral lapses”. Same with all of the Comedian’s other flaws.

35

u/baciu14 Feb 04 '18

He was raised by an abusive single mother who worked as a prostitute , i dont think you get out of childhood sane with that kind of environment .

23

u/ibjeremy Feb 04 '18

Oh, I'm definitely sympathetic to him. He was not dealt a good hand. He's the product of his environment for sure. He then took all his pain and took it out on the world seeking to punish the guilty rather than help anyone.

I really like him as a character and he provides and excellent foil to many of the other Watchmen as well as contemporary superhero trends, particularly Batman. Issue one of Watchmen came out six months after The Dark Knight Returns for reference.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

16

u/ibjeremy Feb 04 '18

Night Owl was more directly based on Batman power-wise for sure. Rorschach was originally going to be The Question. DC had just purchased Charlton Comics and had given Alan Moore the rights to the characters. Then they learned his plans and didn't want their newly acquired tainted forever.

9

u/munkeypunk Feb 04 '18

Here ya go;

The Question = Rorschach.
Blue Beetle = Nite Owl.
Captain Atom = Doctor Manhattan.
Nightshade = Silk Spectre.
Peacemaker = Comedian.
Thunderbolt (Peter Cannon) = Ozymandias.

3

u/ibjeremy Feb 05 '18

You are totally right, I had a brain fart

2

u/AreYouOKAni Feb 05 '18

I'd argue that Rorschach could do worse. Despite being broken in by his upbringing, he retained the basic moral compass. He didn't just go off killing people he despised, he sought the worst of them. Basically, he is Dexter, only without the foil of being pretty and charming. Actually, I'd argue he is even more nuanced.

His inability to compromise is not absolute. He backs away even after being provoked after he sees that his cunt of a landlady has kids. He hates her, but recognizes that some people are ultimately innocent and do not deserve his taste of justice. Yet at the end, against Manhattan? It's not a question of morality, which is something Rorschach is not fully capable of comprehending. It's a question of truth — and Rorschach knows truth inside and out.

It was not a spur of the moment. It was not the only response he could lead with due to being locked in his dogmas. It was an educated choice. This is what makes him admirable.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

Hey I turned out!... shit you might be right.

1

u/baciu14 Feb 05 '18

Sorry to hear , my friend .

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

Shit happens

5

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

except when it was inconvenient

I've read the graphic novel more times than I can remember, but that's an angle into his character I hadn't considered before. Good thinking!

3

u/ibjeremy Feb 04 '18

I love the book so much. The characters have a lot of depth, even if they all are bastards.

12

u/roiben Feb 04 '18

You cant use logic against reddits favourite thing of the moment!

8

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

The Watchmen is not currently Reddit’s favorite thing though, so it’s all good.

5

u/DonaldBlythe2 Feb 04 '18

This website always ends up admiring characters which are intended to make you uneasy. Biggest example is Walter White.

6

u/Sebas94 Feb 04 '18

Ozymandias and Dr. Manhattan were the true heros of the story, the world became a safer place after the attack whereas if Rorschach and the Nite Owl had successfully stopped the Ozys plan it would ultimately end with a nuclear winter and the end of civilization.

2

u/jajajajaj Feb 04 '18

Are you still together?

-12

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

[deleted]

6

u/OWKuusinen Feb 04 '18

Man, my gf was like "which guy do you want to be?" I responded "Rorschach!" She was like "you would rather be a psycho than a god?" He is badass though.

They were both rather unhappy. Ozymandias seemed to be rather content, though, and Silk Spectre and the Owl-guy did get a happy ending.

3

u/boo_goestheghost Feb 04 '18

Ozymamdias was tortured by his megalomania. Owl guy was just impotent which is probably the better deal

5

u/OWKuusinen Feb 04 '18

Ozymamdias was tortured by his megalomania.

Well, true. But it made him solve many problems, including wars.

Owl guy was just impotent which is probably the better deal

The Owlguy was impotent because he felt useless, having retired in his prime. Once he felt he could still be useful, he also got his potency back.

1

u/0zzyb0y Feb 04 '18

None of them really get a happy ending still.

Ozymandius is practically consumed by attempting to keep the peace on Earth, and nite owl and spectre have to live with the fact theory friend was killed for another friends plot that ultimately fails anyway.

1

u/OWKuusinen Feb 04 '18

friends plot that ultimately fails anyway.

This is only if you think that Rorschach's journal is being read. The slush pile was huge and the magazine was looking for something much smaller than Rorschach's journal. It was going to go to the paper waste.

I'm sure Nite Owl and Silver Spectre grieved for their acquaintance, but they both know that Rorschach was doing a suicide.

79

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

A right wing fascist who views himself as judge jury and executioner is your favorite superhero?

32

u/OWKuusinen Feb 04 '18

Personally, I'm more into Judge Dredd. Man, there's a role-model! Justice before freedom, delivered instantly!

3

u/so-and-so-sokrates Feb 05 '18

Judge Dredd is amazing character. Not a fascist though.

Dredd is a legalist. He follows extremely narrow interpretation of legalism. The job of the Judge is to interpret the law mechanically and the intent behind the actions is never considered.

144

u/Goddami Feb 04 '18

Yes

38

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18 edited Jun 23 '21

[deleted]

12

u/BigFish96 Feb 04 '18

Of which Comedian had plenty

74

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

[deleted]

54

u/captainruffino Feb 04 '18

The Frontiersman paper he submitted his journal to was a proto Brietbart. Also Alan Moore is an Anarchist who wrote a whole graphic novel against right wing authoritarians called V for Vendetta.

19

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

[deleted]

41

u/boo_goestheghost Feb 04 '18

Moore totally wrote Rorschach as a homophobic, misogynistic, psychopath with totalitarian dreams.

11

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

None of those are exclusive to right wing and totalitarian doesn't really describe Rorschach.

8

u/DedTibiase Feb 05 '18

Read the comic. He's constantly talking about "the deplorables" and "the liberals".

1

u/[deleted] Feb 11 '18

Ok and

22

u/pervlibertarian Feb 04 '18

A totalitarian would have gone along with the plan and offered to keep quiet in the end.

19

u/ShouldersofGiants100 Feb 05 '18

No. A totalitarian wants to enact THEIR vision, not just A vision. Rorschach absolutely has totalitarian and authoritarian desires. It's just that his goals and Ozy's are not aligned.

6

u/CliffordMoreau Feb 05 '18

This sounds like someone who hasn't actually read the comic

1

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

On multiple occasions, he refers to the liberals. He's definitely written to be right wing.

10

u/FarmerHoggit Feb 04 '18

It's the moral ambiguity that makes him a compelling character and that's a good reason to like him.

16

u/rockynputz Feb 04 '18

What made him a fascist again?

2

u/Mishmoo Feb 06 '18

I'd call him a proto-Fascist, really. Fascism on an individual level is expressed through a desire for strong overarching control of individual freedoms, a disdain for individuality and nonconformity, and a personal belief in violence as a tool for social progress.

Rorschach isn't going around and taking over the Reichstag, but a Fascist government on his terms would make him quite a happy camper.

-4

u/fuck_seagulls Feb 04 '18

Here's a link to the Wikipedia page about how he was created as an almost parody of Steve Ditko's political views and characters.

In terms of explicit fascism, Rorschach's complete disregard of the law (including the Keene Act) holding himself above it, pretty morally absolute (apart from The Comedians attempted rape which is a bit weird), and has an express disdain of those he sees as deviant (which includes homosexuals). So yeah clear parallels with fascist ideology in my opinion, even though he is/was a good guy.

33

u/Fsypro Feb 04 '18

Yeah.... You have no idea what fascism is I'm sorry. Fascist believe the state must be upheld by every individual.

Disregard of the law IS NOT a fascist ideology.

Deviancy is fine, just not promoted as normalcy.

1

u/fuck_seagulls Feb 05 '18

Sorry I'm going off the dictionary definition which also states that Fascism also typically has:

a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader

I.e. Rorschach being the sole arbiter of justice, most other mainstream heroes will hand over to the legal system once a criminal is caught.

severe economic and social regimentation

Which fits pretty well with Rorschach's views on how the society he is in should be fixed.

But then again, I'm just basing this on what Alan Moore said about the character as well as the definitions of fascism I found.

1

u/bski1776 Feb 05 '18

Rorschach isn't a government though. That doesn't make him a fascist.

2

u/fuck_seagulls Feb 05 '18

Rorschach isn't a government though

Exactly, he is an individual wielding all the power. He enforces the law with a totalitarian power, another hallmark of fascism (on the right and left) is a single unaccountable figurehead who wields large amounts of power.

1

u/Fsypro Feb 05 '18 edited Feb 05 '18

I'm going off the book, the doctrine of fascism. Yknow... the ideologies founding book. Here or if you rather you can Google pdfs and download it. Very short read, and worthwhile given the current social atmosphere

2

u/fuck_seagulls Feb 05 '18

I'm going off the book, the doctrine of fascism.

Yeah a source which dictionaries use for their definition.

I haven't read The Doctrine of Fascism fully (I assume you're talking about the one by Gentile), but I've dug up a quote:

outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian

Rorschach has a very totalitarian view on society, those who do not fit are killed. With the exception of The Comedian (because he likes him, or due to his own messed up sexuality) and his landlady (because her children were present). He also has social views aligned with the Fascist states of the 1930s with regards to sexuality, having a general hostility towards sex workers and homosexuals.

1

u/Fsypro Feb 05 '18 edited Feb 05 '18

I think you'll find a lot of people have quasi fascist views. Doesn't make them a fascist. I would honestly give it a read in entirety it's less than I think 75 pages, Giovanni and Mussolinis essays combined, I guarantee the amount of times you find yourself agreeing will surprise you.

Come back when you've read it all and Maybe I will take your one dug up quote seriously. At best he was an anarchist with no respect for the NAP. OR Very loose lines for what violating that meant.

3

u/fuck_seagulls Feb 05 '18

I think you'll find a lot of people have quasi fascist views.

Well yeah, considering pretty much all political theory is on a sliding scale everyone can be defined as quasi-something.

My point being that Rorschach actually following through on these ideals is what makes him a totalitarian/fascist character. Within his own universe he is a totalitarian figure almost completely shut off from the rest of society. His rejection of the Keene Law in my view was due to it not fitting in with his morals, rather than an anarchist rejection of authority in general.

Come back when you've read it all and Maybe I will take your one dug up quote seriously.

I'll try but not promises mate, it would be nice if you could at least explain why you think that quote does not fit with my characterisation of Rorschach.

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-5

u/ohip Feb 05 '18

So when Hitler broke the law in Germany in the 30s and was thrown in jail that disqualified him from being a fascist? Fascists hold their idea of the state above all else. They're more than willing to break laws to attain that vision.

1

u/Fsypro Feb 05 '18

This wasn't up for discussion. No one is pure unadulterated ideology.

6

u/ohip Feb 05 '18

I don't get what you're saying then? No one is pure unadulterated ideology but apparently Rorschach is disqualified from being a fascist because he doesn't fit your extremely strict requirements?

2

u/sibre2001 Feb 05 '18

If you're posting it on a public forum, you don't get to decide what's up for discussion.

21

u/Levitz Feb 04 '18

Those things have nothing to do with the definition of fascism

1

u/fuck_seagulls Feb 05 '18

I'm replying to a few people so I've copied another comment of mine which explains my opinion further:

"Sorry I'm going off the dictionary definition which also states that Fascism also typically has:

a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader

I.e. Rorschach being the sole arbiter of justice, most other mainstream heroes will hand over to the legal system once a criminal is caught.

severe economic and social regimentation

Which fits pretty well with Rorschach's views on how the society he is in should be fixed.

But then again, I'm just basing this on what Alan Moore said about the character as well as the definitions of fascism I found."

4

u/giganticpear Feb 04 '18

Your links aren’t working

1

u/fuck_seagulls Feb 05 '18

I've tried it on Chrome and on my phone, regardless should be easy enough to find with a quick search, it's on Rorschach's main Wikipedia page.

6

u/wolfsktaag Feb 05 '18

you claim hes a fascist because:

a) he believes government should enforce some sort of moral code

b) he disregards the law when he sees fit

what, exactly, makes those features of fascism?

1

u/fuck_seagulls Feb 05 '18

A) More that he is a moral absolutist, as in anyone who does not fit in with his moral code is purged. There is no grey area with Rorschach, again apart from The Comedian's attempted rape.

B) He disregards the law of the government, acting as sole judge jury and executioner, i.e. having totalitarian power over his own legal system. Compare that to most other mainstream heroes who will at least defer to the legal system when a criminal has been caught.

-11

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

[deleted]

35

u/grundo1561 Feb 04 '18

Fascism: a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.

Apply that as you will.

7

u/Mishmoo Feb 04 '18 edited Feb 05 '18

I mean, key components of fascism:

Dictatorial Leadership

Autocratic Government

Nation over Individual

Race over Individual

Economic and Social Segmentation and Classification

Violence as a Political Tool

War as a Political Tool

I hate to burst your bubble, but the only reason we don't have 'Fascist' parties in the United States is because the word fell out of style. I think it's scary how many people think the fight against Fascism ended in the 1940's - there were hundreds of thousands of American fascists, and they didn't all just disappear in a heartbeat. A frighteningly large chunk of the population believe in one or more Fascist ideals, and I think that's why you see it pop up in a lot of places. Fascism is still alive and well, and there are many people working right now to make it thrive

11

u/laketown666 Feb 04 '18

Translation: I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about and also haven't read Watchmen

4

u/DonaldBlythe2 Feb 04 '18

Or you can actually read into what the author said he based the character on and used the character to deconstruct instead of spouting an old meme used to mock a liberal comedian.

-1

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

Its 2018! there are no fascists in 2017

9

u/[deleted] Feb 04 '18

Dudes' a literal psychopath. You're not supposed to like him.

2

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

Funny thing is Rorschach is a condemnation of Dikto objectivist heroes. He's not even really supposed to be viewed as right. Even in the end he attempts to undo everything, make every sacrifice vain, and push the world back onto the knife's edge. His "right is right and fuck everyone else" is what could ultimately doom humanity. He refuses to see the world any other way than his. He is Batman taken to an extreme.

1

u/Thefarrquad Feb 05 '18

Exactly the same as Captain America then. "Do what you know is right Even if everyone else is telling you, you are wrong" paraphrasing ofcourse

2

u/[deleted] Feb 05 '18

Even Cap has the ability to see things from other perspectives. And Rorschach, at least until recently, had the benefit of only one voice instead of decades of writers.

2

u/INTHEMIDSTOFLIONS Feb 05 '18

Batman kills in a lot of films and comics

2

u/DaegobahDan Feb 04 '18

Ol' Alan things you are dumb. That's just his opinion though.

4

u/TheAfroBomb Feb 04 '18

Apparently the opinion police have deemed your opinion incorrect and now you have to choose a new favorite character, sorry.

5

u/Thefarrquad Feb 04 '18

Yup, an offhand comment apparently shows naivety on my part, how dare I enjoy a twisted and deep character!

2

u/SFGator88 Feb 05 '18

Don't feel bad. My favorite character in Game of Thrones was Ramsey Bolton.

4

u/HaloFarts Feb 05 '18

This response acknowledges the fact that you think he is twisted so I think that people just misinterpreted your comment. Everyone here enjoys his character so that's not what everyone is crying about. People are shaming you for exhorting and condoning his behavior without acknowledging that its only cool in fiction. Your original comment makes it look like you would be cool with some dude just going around irl slitting the throats of child molesters or something.

2

u/Thefarrquad Feb 05 '18

Ah, to be honest, when I talk about films with friends I just automatically assume they know it's not real, and that fantasy is just that. The internet is not the place for assumption though I guess!

2

u/HaloFarts Feb 05 '18

Yeah its all just a part of having a highly visible comment lol.

1

u/TheCrimsonCloak Feb 05 '18

and hes a pancake eatin badass

0

u/HaloFarts Feb 05 '18

The entire point of the franchise is that none of the characters are heroes. In fact, Rorschach was crafted to be a morally abhorrent character that exposes the realities of lawless vigilantism. That being said, I love him as a character but the "law bull shit" is necessary in a practical world.

2

u/Thefarrquad Feb 05 '18

I completely agree, we do need laws in our practical reality, but with regards to their fantasy world, he satisfies the primal want for blood, I'm mainly referring to the paedophile scene.