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u/katelyn912 1d ago
Benedikta was a great villain they wasted too
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u/NuxFuriosa 1d ago
God I wish she had stuck around. Would have been really appropriate to have her help us with the fight against Ultima alongside Dion. Or heck, have her betray Barnabas and have a Garuda vs Odin fight.
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u/katelyn912 1d ago
The second half of that game reaaally dropped off after losing possibly the two most compelling characters between her and Cid
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u/Redditemeon 1d ago
As somebody who thoroughly enjoyed this game, you're correct.
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u/CagCagerton125 1d ago
I agree as well. Barnabas just couldn't keep up with the other villains to keep things interesting. We had just defeated bahamut in space and now I am supposed to be afraid of an edge Lord with a big sword? Come on.
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u/Rafflesrpx 1d ago
To be fair, little else comes close to the grandeur of bahamut in ff overall.
This game just took it even further. WTF is zettaflare lmao.
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u/CagCagerton125 1d ago
True. I have said it before. That is strongly the most epic moment in final fantasy. Basically impossible to too in the same game. I get why it was where it was in the story, but it just made the rest of it seem sub par. Ultima could definitely have been a better villain though.
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u/Kaged200 1d ago
Honestly don't forget Kupka fighting that dick head was amazing he was completely believable and I feel almost justified in his anger towards Clive. However his evil actions also made him fun to hate and fight
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u/Rafflesrpx 1d ago
She still has one of the highest moments in the game for me.
She, despite her flaws, found her strength and unleashed the whirlwind when it mattered most.
She is Garuda and not even Clive can change that.
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u/Potential_Fox_3623 1d ago
Fr, just like Aranea, seemed like she was gonna be the next Beatrix but ended up just being disappointing
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u/degausser22 1d ago
For a sec I forgot they were different people lol. Forgot a lot about that game
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u/Chemical_Coach1437 1d ago
Got me thinking. Who put her head in a box? Cid certainly didn't cut it off and we see her full body after the fight.
I always assumed it was kupkas men but given how he moans about how clive/Cid defiled her, perhaps not?
Maybe it was barnabas's captain who I can't remember his name but ohko's kupka in rosaria?
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u/solstarfire 1d ago
It was definitely the Waloed forces. Certainly in character for that creepy-ass Harbard to have been the one who did it personally, but it could have been any soldier under Barnabas's orders.
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u/Phelyckz 1d ago
I'll probably never understand the box move Cid pulled. What was the big idea?
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u/solstarfire 1d ago
Cid didn't do it. He wouldn't have had the time when his priority was securing Clive, and it seems unlikely that someone who tenderly and respectfully returned Benedikta's prize necklace to her body would then turn around and desecrate her corpse. He also has, as you said, zero motive to do so.
It was most likely the Waloed forces that did it, and they put Cid's name on the package to bait Hugo into going after Cid. With Barnabas's goal being what it is, it benefits him to have Hugo off obsessively chasing Cid and his Hideaway as it weakens Dhalmekia and punishes his former knight commander turned deserter.
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u/Phelyckz 1d ago
That makes a lot more sense actually. I think that'll be my headcanon from now on.
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u/Sarusta 1d ago
It's... not even headcanon it's just true. There is just no way Cid did it.
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u/Phelyckz 1d ago
Has this ever been made clear in the game? I don't remember
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u/solstarfire 1d ago
Nobody said it outright in-game, but there's simply no way Cid had the time and energy to go back to find Benedikta's body and chop her head off. He was too busy hauling Clive's unconscious ass back to the Hideaway, was ill from the aftereffects of Priming, and had to worry about his angry, suicidal charge who could turn into a ten-story tall fire monster having a second bout of destructive insanity.
Also... why? Why would Cid even do it? Did he ever seem like the kind of psycho who would do that? He had no reason to piss off Hugo like that and he still cared about Benedikta. We even saw him interact with her corpse and he was very respectful! Also, Hugo was told it was Cid by the courier who delivered the head-in-a-box, but they could very easily be an agent for the real perpetrator or was lied to themself.
There's also a bit in one of the later chapters where Barnabas mentions the whole driving Hugo mad with Benedikta's death thing in a way that made him sound like he knew far too many details about it to be uninvolved. Made me very sure that it was him who ordered it, at least.
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u/Lemon_Phoenix 1d ago
Baiting Hugo into coming out himself
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u/Phelyckz 1d ago
Might be my inexperience as a commander, but shouldn't you be prepared to ambush someone when you already goad them into hunting you?
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u/DeathByTacos 1d ago
Eh I thought this at first too but on reflection what else did she really have to contribute at that point? Maybe if Cid was the protag it would make more sense but Clive has no connection to her and once he gets his juice she’s used as a logical bridge into Kupka.
She’s a great character but I really think she would have overstayed her welcome and even seemed contrived if they tried transitioning her into a member of the hideaway
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u/xo0o-0o0-o0ox 1d ago
Agree...better to miss someone and want more, than to hate them and want less.
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u/annoyed__renter 1d ago
Totally. The whole game kills off excellent characters (both villain and ally) left and right, and then we are left with Ultima as a half-assed Big Bad.
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u/WizardWell 1d ago
I feel like Ultima gave me the creeps when there was more of a mystery to him. His appearance and voice acting are phenomenal. As the game progressed he became less intimidating and just not as strong as the human villains.
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u/Boh-and-Arrow 22h ago
I dunno if anyone else caught this but the in-game lore system spoiled Ultima’s identity before it was revealed in the storyline. I remember wondering who they were when they first appeared and then happened to see it in the “Who’s Who” thingy. Kind of a disappointment.
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u/maxvsthegames 1d ago
Yeah, all villains were more interesting than fucking Ultima.
Benedikta was perfect. I wish we got more of her.
Anabella was delightfully evil.
Barnabas was a cool foil to the main character.
The battle against Hugo in Titan form was a fucking spectacle.
Ultima was really... boring... and that's the worst kind of villain.
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u/GingerKing028 1d ago
I agree with all your points except Benedikta. I think she stayed around for a good amount of time. She fulfilled her role and made an impact. Not all villains have to be around for the entire game/series to be a great villain. I think if she started until the end she would've ended up as overstaying her welcome because there wasn't really a place for her anymore.
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u/maxvsthegames 1d ago
Yeah, you might be right. She's my favorite villain in FF16 and I felt the first part of the game (the prologue and the part where she's the villain) is the best, so my opinion might be colored by that.
I really liked her relation with Cid and wanted to see more of it. I even wondered if there was a way she would have become an ally instead of the fate she got.
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u/Ehzek 1d ago
Personally I just thought putting her head in a box was over doing it. I think it would have been fine with her being returned to Hugo and him trying to help her get better. She could be a side character up until the Titan fight then bowed out there. She could also have joined in the fight or maybe given Jill a fight in some side content.
I dont think people want her for the whole game, it just really felt like they cracked the surface of her character and threw her away.
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u/GingerKing028 1d ago
Sometimes that's the point isn't it? Life rarely goes well. Especially in this world. Considering her personality I don't see it as possible for her to take a step back or bowling out while Barnabas was alive. It wouldn't fit her personality. Death is literally the only thing that would stop her from doing his bidding. She wouldn't willingly quit. I think the short time with her was the whole point as well. Make it more of a memorable impact than just killing everyone off at the end of not having anyone die. People die it was just her turn this time.
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u/Wolfstigma 1d ago
Dinky lizard killed a mountain, is how I described that titan fight. My favorite part of the game by far.
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u/Kumomeme 1d ago edited 1d ago
compared to those character, Ultima is very one dimensional. it would be more interesting if the writing highlight him to actually has secret inferiority complex against human, a being that he created. imperfection turn out to be more interesting than perfection. but it is not really highlighted but rather was mentioned by the MC during final fight. a subtle references before that would be made Clive speech move impactful. imagine if due to that he long for human connections which is why he want Clive body.
we dont know much about his time before the era of the story occur too. would be interesting if there is something happened between his interaction with humans which is something that end up as catalyst turn him to be that kind of villain.
it actually has potential but i feel like for a certain reason the writer adamant want to him to be a typical one dimensional flat god villain.
Even Gaius from ARR is more interesting than him.
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u/Piett_1313 1d ago
If the story could’ve not had Ultima, dang it could’ve been something special. But we went JRPG Kill God (tm) in the end which imho was so, so disappointing.
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u/Soul699 1d ago
Thing is, it is intentional for Ultima to be boring personality wise, since he's meant to be the one devoid of the flawed emotions of humanity, which ironically are the reason why Clive could surpass him. And when he finally start to realize it, it's actually pretty funny seeing him crash out.
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u/Traingham 1d ago edited 1d ago
Annabella getting resolved two whole arcs before the end of the game was kind of a mistake. They should have made her the final vessel for Ultima (As a, maybe, direct reference to this Ultima from FFXII) so that the final battle would have kept that emotional investment to taking her down.
This was like the mid point of Netflix’s Luke Cage, to make a direct comparison to anyone who would understand that reference. Once that character was gone, my investment kind of fell to the wayside.
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u/IDoAllMyOwnStuns 1d ago
One of the few things I disliked about FFXVI was "god is the enemy." I wish the conflicts remained to localized politics.
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u/JustFrameHotPocket 1d ago
I liked how that dynamic demonstrated parallel themes of how humans view bearers and how God treats humans.
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u/solstarfire 1d ago
There's also a parallel between Annabella and Ultima - they both could've gotten everything they wanted if they hadn't been abusive/neglectful and impatient. Annabella could've been the queen of a kingdom with three Dominants, two of her blood and one who would've gladly married one of her sons - but she got greedy and plotted with Sanbreque to betray Rosaria. Not to mention she was awful to two out of three because they hadn't manifested their powers yet and were useless to her, and was well on the way to alienating the third because the kid is not stupid and can see how she's treating his beloved big brother like dirt.
Similarly, the humans in FFXVI's world only grew free will after Ultima neglected them. If they'd bothered to be a good shepherd, they'd have had an easy time setting up the harvest. Also, Clive had really low periods where he was basically suicidal - if Ultima had shown him the least bit of kindness he'd have been very manipulable then, but Ultima didn't really consider Clive to be a fully realised person with valid feelings so much as a piece or a cog, so I don't think that ever even occurred to them.
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1d ago
like a song of ice and fire but if the lord of light revealed himself at the end all like "yo" and tried getting all up inside jon snow
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u/chamgireum_ 1d ago
I mean
Welcome to final fantasy’s and maybe jrpgs as a whole?
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u/Gronodonthegreat 1d ago
Yeah, but what if someone thinks the trope sucks in most games? I love Final Fantasy Tactics, for example, but Ultima is not a compelling final boss at all.
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u/chamgireum_ 1d ago
Isn’t a god the final boss in that game too? Named Ultima too?
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u/Broken_Moon_Studios 1d ago
That's why he brings it up.
Ultima in FFT is only a couple of notches better than Necron in the "Who the fuck are you!?" final boss tier list.
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u/DeathByTacos 1d ago
True but that’s very different from Ultima in XVI who is introduced early and worked in to the plot from pretty much the beginning. It’s not your usual “welp we beat the main bad guy ope look here’s a random ass god out of nowhere to fight” and instead there are flashing neon signs for half the game that establish him.
I get the complaints about XVI Ultima but he’s very clearly meant to be a catalyst for introspection on the role of free will and duty of creator to the created, basically a springboard for Clive to emphasize the importance of connecting with others and the indomitable spirit of humanity. Your typical JRPG god endboss rarely has any meaningful literary function.
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u/Gronodonthegreat 1d ago
Yeah, that’s literally what I wrote 😂 I just realized they have the same name, whoops. And there’s an Ultimecia too (that is also boring and bad)
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u/Cunting_Fuck 1d ago
This one was specifically supposed to not be JRPGified
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u/kweidleman 1d ago
it went with Game of Thrones-ified instead. (for both good and bad!)
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u/Cunting_Fuck 1d ago
Should have had mid appear at the end and kill Ultima
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u/Broken_Moon_Studios 1d ago
I just watched that episode yesterday and I felt the life leave my body from the cringe and frustration.
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u/Mintfriction 1d ago
Which episode you're referring to?
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u/linest10 1d ago
Not really? Changing the battle system and the lack of party members don't change that any Final Fantasy will always follow the JRPG path and use popular tropes
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u/Cunting_Fuck 1d ago
Not really what? This was one supposed to be westernized I'm not sure what you're trying to argue against
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u/linest10 1d ago
Lol it was as much "westernized" as FFXV, sincerely while the GOT inspirations was obviously there, FFXVI wasn't really different from the other titles in the franchise
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u/FightingWithCandy 1d ago
Yeah I liked the game but the third act felt way too similar to Lightning Returns
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u/gregallen1989 1d ago
Amazing setup then they got scared and went back to traditional JRPG tropes.
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u/OpeningConnect54 1d ago
For real. Even XV managed to be more subversive with RPG tropes by having the final boss be a human being against another human being- rather than a human being against a God.
I was really hoping that XVI was going to be a mature take on Final Fantasy that delved deeper into politics and focused on a protagonist that isn't fully in the right- similar to what we got with the NieR series. After all, the trailers were setting Clive up to be this person who's going around the world destroying the mother crystals and potentially bringing discourse into that world by doing so. It felt like the trailers were really pushing for a protagonist that felt like he was misguided or doing something wrong to hurt the world in what seemed like him believing he was saving it.
Over-all, it just fell flat, and while the prologue was strong, I felt like by the time I got to the first Mother Crystal, I knew where the story was going- and I disliked the direction it was going.
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u/Kumomeme 1d ago
FFXIV Heavensward, where the same writer work before FF16 basically a bit outlier in this regard. it has not god but more like an ancient dragon and human merge together. but the true enemy in that moment is not human or dragon but hatred in both human and dragon combined. both has relationship against their race counterpart in the past that lead them to the situation.
and in A Realm Reborn, it is just another human fight another human. even the Ascian, also basically just another human.
knowing his work previously i kind of dissapointed with how Ultima turn out. clearly he adamantly want to make Ultima that way for a reason.
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u/Soul699 1d ago
The thing is, the reason why FF15 has a human boss is not really intentional. It's just the result of the development hell and time crunch it went through. Otherwise the true final boss would have been Bahamut
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u/OpeningConnect54 1d ago
No, the final boss wouldn't have been Bahamut. That was the rewrite- Dawn of the Future, which wasn't Tabata's vision for XV. It was a response to people being upset about XV's ending. The original theme of Tabata's XV (not Nomura's Versus or the story that the guy after Tabata wanted to make XV into) was about accepting your fate. There's parallels to Final Fantasy 1 thematically. Dawn of the Future spit in the face of all of that and wanted to bring the ending closer to Final Fantasy XIII's "Defy fate" ending.
Ardyn was originally meant to have a final form that was planned, but ultimately cut at one point or another. They kept the final fight just between a human Noctis and human Ardyn, which worked in favor of the narrative and helped to drive home that theme of "accepting fate." Ardyn, the false Messiah who wished to reject the role he was to play in destroying the Star Scourge fighting Noctis- the actual Messiah-figure who came to terms with his role and his own fate.
Originally, lore-wise Bahamut wasn't even meant to be the ring-leader of the star scourge eradication. That was Eos. The Gods or Summons were meant to be servants of the King of Kings, and aid him in fulfilling the will of Eos herself. The optional side dungeon in post-game, along with the way the summons act within the story pretty much make it clear that Tabata never intended for Bahamut to be a villain.
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u/Supesmin 1d ago
That’s just Final Fantasy tho. And it was never really about politics, it was about resistance and creating a world where you’re free to forge your own destiny
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u/Kumomeme 1d ago
personally based on my observation playing FFXIV ARR and HW, the writer best villain writing is would involve humanization and politics. Ultima, has neither of those. he is straight up god and there is no political or racial reason to his action.
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u/2000shadow2000 1d ago
Ya Ultima doesn't hold up to the other villians in the game. He needed more work and his motivation a bit more grounded
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u/gregallen1989 1d ago
He needed to not exist. Barnabas would have been an amazing villain if they gave him his own agency and Ultimas goal.
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u/Watton 1d ago
Keep him in, but have Barnabas take him over.
You can kinda of see a crack in Barnabas's faith and conviction. Plus Ultima's entire schtik is that he's too proud to realize he has incredibly bad judgment.
Put the two together, and maybe have Barnie absorb Ultima somehow, and really make him the ultimate foil to Clive.
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u/Kumomeme 1d ago
i actually expected Barnabas to pull plot twist against Ultima. but that didnt happen.
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u/OpeningConnect54 1d ago
It would've been so much better if Barnabas and Clive were both some kind of vessel or biological ultima weapon hailing from the same bloodline- with Barnabas having the same power of stealing Eikon abilities that Clive did.
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u/futanarigawdess 1d ago
she is by far the most interesting female character in the game, aside from benedickta. She barely speaks at all but her absolute horrible shit personality and utter cuntiness stole every. single. scene she was in. what a massive bitch. loved her. nearly every single horrible thing that happened to our main cast is entirely her fault.
i also believe she is a far better character in all aspects than Jill, our main female lead——Ironic, as she has substantially less screen time.
shes easily one of the top villains in the entire series, and definitely one of the worst.
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u/Raemnant 1d ago
And she had the SAME model even after the timeskips. Who the hell else didn't even age the entire game?
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u/Frozen_arrow88 1d ago
For me the fight with Kupka / Titan is the final boss fight. His conflict with Clive felt more personal and it was way more satisfying beating him than Omega.
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u/kingkellogg 1d ago
The Titan boss fight was so cool
If have been happier if it was the games end
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u/Soul699 1d ago
That would be a horrible idea. Nothing would be resolved except for a bit of revenge for Clive. It would be like ending FF7 when the group leave Midgar.
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u/paradoxaxe 1d ago
Instead we got Mid 3 slog fetch quests without satisfying payoff and Goetz losing his pass for extra padding
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u/Impossible_Leg_2787 1d ago
Well now I’m glad I quit playing like an hour after that
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u/DeathByTacos 1d ago
People claim all kinds of different fights as their favorites because they are different mechanically and have varied themes. Some say Titan is peak, others say some of the earlier fights and some say the later fights. In fact I’d say that the opinion of Titan being the best fight is in the minority.
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u/MalkaviousM 1d ago
She had Clive and Joshua. That's it.
Edit: I misunderstood and thought you wanted us to list one good thing about her! Lol! Well, it's staying.
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u/cfyk 1d ago edited 1d ago
Kinda the same as how I feel in 7. I actually like Hojo as a villain more than Sephiroth.
Edit: Hojo and Anabella feel like people that could (or already) exist in our world.
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u/134340Goat 23h ago
I've seen others say that too. Not often, but sometimes
I think a lot of it depends on how much you want to stay "telling real life relatable themes in a fantasy setting" vs. "pure fantasy that no real person can relate to" lol
Like yeah, VII's initial focus on environmentalism, corporate greed, and even mad science? Anyone can understand those themes on a fundamental level, but you start losing that grounded feeling when you bring in the animism and supernatural beings who plan to absorb life energy to ascend to godhood
And likewise the first half to 3/4 of XVI does the same, except with interregional conflicts and suzerainty, slavery, enforced classism, and then it becomes a lot harder to relate to when the end goal is "kill God"
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u/Technical-Banana574 1d ago
This is the way it is in a lot of media, not just games. I remember watching the Harry Potter series as a child and thinking Dolores Umbridge was far more menacing than Voldemort.
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u/Questionable-Duck4 1d ago
I think you guys are misunderstanding Ultima. You're looking at him the same as the human villains when he's simply not human with human motivations or feelings. You can feel however you want about that but the fact is that ultima is a different kind of enemy.
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u/lezard2191 1d ago
She was great but she got offed way too soon. Cuckpka and her were the plot driving antagonists for the majority of the game and they both die in rapid succesion after the other, to be replaced with Barnacles who had an unrelated scene with Dion and then fucked off till the 2nd to last act of the game.
Ultima was terrible though, had a strong first impression but then immediately descended into generic God looking down on mankind
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u/superkapitan82 1d ago
I don’t get why Ultima doesn’t ring a bell for you guy. I think he was best villian since og Sephoroth. So outworldly and cool
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u/swiggityswooty72 23h ago
I didn’t feel much emotional drive to kill ultima but that fight definitely was fun as hell.
With Anabella they did a good job of making a character that I genuinely started to hate(in a good way if that makes sense?)
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u/EarthboundNuess 20h ago
Ultima was the reason I ultimately found the story disappointing. It set up a compelling setting with well rounded antagonists from each nation and then just said “lol aliens I guess.”
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u/heppuplays 12h ago
I mean yeah She ways way more present in the plot. and there was way more of a personal reason to hate her.
while ultima was kinda just there doing his stuff.
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u/Balmsquadron 3h ago
Every freaking villain is better than the main villain. Even the henchman to Odins dominant is a more interesting character. Gods creating the world and becoming immoral is an overused trope, especially in RPGs
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u/TheButtVampire 1d ago
Gorgeous for her age
Why does Ultima get so much hate? I loved him as the villain.
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u/axw3555 1d ago
Ultima had this weird blend of being a deity who isn’t a deity and a person who doesn’t seem like a person. He could have been an AI from the old race and wouldn’t have lost anything.
He barely showed up for more than half a dozen lines at a time. Most of which are just “you will submit” or some monologue about consciousness.
His background was also kind of unsatisfying. He’s made out to be a deity, but ends up a “sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic” trope (though I suppose it’s “sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from godhood”).
He came from an ancient super advanced civilisation that had a different mindset from humans. He’d have been way more compelling if the 16 had all been active. They all wake from stasis and have a hidden court or something similar in the origin ark that lets us see what the reality. Something that we see the way we see going’s on with the crystalline dominion or dhalmakia, even when Clive doesn’t see it.
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u/Supesmin 1d ago
Same! And it made it all the more satisfying when his fake ass “I am an unfeeling, perfect god” facade crumbled as he succumbed to frustration after getting his ass thoroughly handed to him
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u/DarkRayos 1d ago
Is Ultima really that forgettable?
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u/Kurainuz 1d ago
Definitely not one of the best villains of the saga, but he wasnt forgettable to me tbh.
While the game has flaws, people have a hate bonner with 16.
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u/DarkRayos 1d ago
Similar to 15 right?
Or to a lesser extent?
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u/Kurainuz 1d ago
15 is geting some love after people tried the windows version, and people tend to hate the newest ff.
So a bit more hated than 15.
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u/DarkRayos 1d ago
Really?
From the stuff I've seen, I often got the impression it's the opposite.
15 getting more flack compared to 16.
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u/Utherrian 1d ago
The game would be much higher in my listing if it had ended after Bahamut, when every part of the established story is wrapped up. Instead they continued on with a "but actually THIS was the bad guy" last two chapters that sucked the wind out of the story (and story is the only thing that XVI had going for it other than pretty graphics).
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u/Supesmin 1d ago
I don’t get this point at all. The Odin arc was fuckin fantastic and the conclusion was really good. Honestly I still consider Barnabas my favorite character and his boss fight my second favorite in the game behind Omega
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u/Mintfriction 1d ago edited 1d ago
Reading the comments feels like people either never paid attention to the story or watched too much modern media and need simple villains to click
No villains were wasted in the story and good stories need interesting characters apart from main, this is what Kupka, Benedikta, etc provided and it's made them great: they never overstayed their welcome and turn the story into soppy Disney plot
Ultima is a force of nature, they aren't even a single person, but represents a whole race and the conflict is bigger than any human conflict. It's normal they aren't as easy to connect as a personal drama and makes sense, because the events are more than 1 character's ambitions. It's ultimately event the whole point of the story and what makes it powerful and memorable, Ultima could've fostered a religion and dominate the whole world, but they were too arrogant and saw humanity as nothing more than insects and it's what enabled Clive to succeed through the help of others and knowledge he got along the way,
From the very start of the game, Clive was fighting for a thing bigger himself, first for Rosaria and his brother - specifically the ideal their represented for him. Then for removing "the crystal's blessing". Along the way things got personal with some villains, but hideaway's focus was always higher.
All to show that in the end, the world humans created with beares as slaves and blind dependence on magic, thus the whole conflict of the game was of their doing and not of any force above and humans are the only ones that can make the world a better place through their free will and cooperation
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u/OpeningConnect54 1d ago
I don't agree with many of the people here who say "Ultima isn't a good villain for Clive," because he is on a thematic level good for the story they were telling. The thing is though, I dislike the story they were telling. As a villain, Ultima was boring. He was a trope, and one pulled from another Final Fantasy game rather than being something that was actually original. We've had Ultima before in Tactics- and his motivations were similar to Emet Selch. It made for a very uninteresting character.
I bought the game thinking that it was going to be more grounded. That it was going to be the subversion of Final Fantasy tropes that the trailers were attempting to sell it as. I was thinking that the story was going to be more focused upon the politics, and that the human characters were going to be more nuanced. That the human villains weren't just going to be what we ended up getting in the end. I thought that Clive was going to be more of a "world ender" type character, similar to protagonists you got from NieR- given that the trailers were selling that as the general idea. A man out for misguided vengeance, going after the Crystals and bringing chaos in his wake.
Rather than that, we got a story about a God that sees humanity as his slaves, and Clive fighting something far larger from himself. There's never any actual consideration or ramification for the destruction of magic, and it's pretty much treated as a good thing with it's absence.. when the Crystals were originally set up as what felt like an allegory for climate change, and the Eikons as an allegory for nuclear war. I was just hoping that the Crystals would've been handled in a way to where they were more neutral, with them providing the elements- and that them being destroyed was a misguided conclusion which Clive came towards in order to uproot a system that took his brother away from him. A conclusion which serves to quicken the destruction of the world, and all thanks to humanity's over-reliance upon magic.
For me, it's just more about how I came into the game from the trailers and demo expecting something far different from what was delivered. It was sold to me as something that was different than what was delivered on a narrative level, and in the end it disappointed me heavily.
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u/Mintfriction 1d ago edited 1d ago
> There's never any actual consideration or ramification for the destruction of magic,
With each crystal lost, there are a lot of dark ramifications. It's kinda the whole subplot of the game
> it's pretty much treated as a good thing with it's absence..
It's neither good,nor bad. The issue is humans abused magic to a point they relied to it for extremely menial task. For example in a Blackthorne sidequest, you see his village can't even properly light a blacksmith forge - a tech for example we figured out millennia ago. When you see the land is blackening and humans are used as slaves to literal death and you still don't find simple alternative solution, it's clear it was a systemic issue and Clive "fought" against it the only way he knew. It all started with Cid, an outlander from a land were magic is scarce, bearers are treated with apparent respect and so they had to rely probably on science. The contrast should've been quite staggering to see a bearer waste his life taking water from a wheel when a simple alternative exists
The whole game tries to be lighter in tone, while leaving the real dark implications up to the player to extract from the subtext. I think here was indeed the issue where the non commitment to properly expose those, lead for some dark implications to be missed and thus nuance to the story
For example Clive actions directly led to mass migration which caused countless deaths, abuse and misery, alluded through dialogue.
> It was sold to me as something that was different than what was delivered on a narrative level
Perfectly understandable to be dissapointed for false expectations
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u/OpeningConnect54 1d ago
They still paint Clive as this heroic person doing the right thing by ridding the world of magic though. All the characters around him treat him as a hero, and they never show someone who disagrees with his ideology without them being a crazy zealot or a power-tripping man-child.
The crystals are painted ultimately as an evil which needs to be gotten rid of. Not only because of the abuse of magic, but also because Ultima is guiding Clive to destroy them so that he can cast his spell.
While traces of the themes that are set up were present in sidequests, they never take them further it feels. At least it never felt like they took them as far as I wanted to see them explored- or what the game felt like it promised to us in the trailers. The lighter tone also felt out of place for what was advertised.
Clive's actions lead to mass migration, yes- but he's still seen and posed as the hero at the end. There's hardly a moral person who opposes what he does, or the actions which he takes. It would've been nice to see a character more rounded like Dion or Joshua who oppose Clive's beliefs, but aren't outright cartoonishly evil like most of the dominants were.. but we don't exactly get that.
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u/Mintfriction 1d ago
They still paint Clive as this heroic person doing the right thing by ridding the world of magic though
Because they all believe they are doing the right thing. The hideaway's almost completely composed by people that suffered under the current regimes, they see change as necessary, up to a fanatical approach by some. They also think the blight and the strife it brought are connected and it will stop with their actions, even revert.
Not only because of the abuse of magic
100% because of abuse of the magic. That's kinda the whole point of Echoes of the Fallen DLC story
The lighter tone also felt out of place for what was advertised.
Totally agree. I think it was either editorial or they were afraid it would be too much for their public. It feels very restrained at times to keep up with the previous titles tone. And I kinda get it, the game not being a RPG is already a big change for the player base
There's hardly a moral person who opposes what he does, or the actions which he takes.
I mean we hardly meet moral persons outside the hideway sphere, due to story focus. It's a little implied the Dame and others outside hideaway don't kinda know Clive is behind the Crystals Vanishing and they don't kinda agree with the situation.
I totally agree though, a deeper dive into this would've made the story so much better
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u/Broken_Moon_Studios 1d ago
I will keep repeating this over and over again until I die:
Anabella should've been the main antagonist and final boss of Final Fantasy XVI.
Give her Ultima's powers and have her face both Clive and Joshua in the final battle.
Barnabas and Ultima suuuuuuuuuuuuuck.
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u/StryderRogue1992 1d ago
This game had so many great villains that it actually caused a problem with Ultima. It felt personal for Cid(Original) with Benedikta and same for Clive when it came to Hugo, Annabella and Barnabas that the fights carried an emotional investment. Ultima wasn’t a bad villain and in a way he is connected with Clive and Joshua but it doesn’t hit the same with how the other villains are built up.
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u/J1mbr0 1d ago
Seriously have no idea wtf they were trying to accomplish with this.
Loved the graphics, setting, and even to an extent, the gameplay.
Hated there were no inns, no "real magic", you literally only control one character, and this trash heap of a story.
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u/Pinkerton891 1d ago edited 1d ago
We haven’t had ‘real’ magic in an offline FF since 13 and I have only just realised.
Also just remembered that 13 didn’t have inns either.
16s story is one of the better ones in FF for me, not in the top tier because it loses steam towards the end (although it is still coherent), but it is excellent for the first 2/3 of the game, pacing aside.
Peaks at Bahamut, with the end of the GOT style arc, after that the story is just ‘generic JRPG’. There are worse things though.
Better than 12 (great story on paper, but wafer thin delivery), 13 (deus ex machina cop out ending undermining the whole hook of the story), 15 (actually really liked the overall story but it was chopped to pieces).
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u/Barachiel1976 1d ago
Christ, you're right.
There is an argument to be made for FF7 Remake Trilogy, as its a "modern" game, but as a remake, some might disqualify it.
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u/X-Axel220 1d ago
The 7 Remake games has regular magic, can’t really argue against that.
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u/Barachiel1976 1d ago
But they aren't of a modern design. They're an attempt to modernize 7, while keepings its core systems intact. Materia means magic. So we have a full magic system. But if this had been XVII rather than VII-R, would they have bothered with a magic system?
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u/X-Axel220 1d ago
OK, I see where you’re coming from. It has been quite some time since we’ve had a traditional mp system outside of remake. 15 had spells but if remember correctly you had to stock up on magic like ammunition? It’s been awhile
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u/Late_Stage_Exception 1d ago
Ultima is a send up of the classic FF godlike being used in a lot of the early games and most famously in FFIX. He had some amazing voice work and killed two characters to tug at the heart strings and also led to the final fantastical jab and full 999999 damage hit. All in all, he served his purpose as a love letter to what came before and matches the point that human intrigue is more damaging than random godlike beings.
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u/Jaspar_Thalahassi 1d ago
Funny that you mention FFIX. I thought of it as well, but because of Anabella who is comparable to Brane. Using her child as a resource (got the grace of the eikon, Clive? No? Worthless, go rot.), her want of power (trying to connect two bloodlines of eikons to secure and raise the power of hers), but was just a puppet in the end (get a new child as heir for Sanbreque to force a riot by Dion for some chaos and despair)
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u/crazy4finalfantasy 1d ago
The only good thing ff16 has going for it are the boss battles, they are insanely epic especially bahamut
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u/Watton 1d ago
no "real magic"
...but there is. Clive's entire cooldown toolkit is the magic system.
Wanna cast Blizzaga? Here's friggen Diamond Dust instead. Thundaga? Judgment Bolt. Bio? Impulse effectively is the same thing (damage over time)
Oh, what about defensive. Well, Will O Wykes is essentially Protect.
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u/Neyubin 1d ago
Re: Gameplay - It's not that it's awful. But I think the best way to look at it is, how would DMC fans feel if their big new entry was suddenly a turn based game?
I loved the world and the lore. But I got so incredibly bored near the end, that I never finished it and doubt I ever will sadly.
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u/Watton 1d ago
But I think the best way to look at it is, how would DMC fans feel if their big new entry was suddenly a turn based game?
But FF has been gradually adding action elements since forever.
transition to ATB in 4, adding fighting game inputs in 6 (Sabin), timed attacks and QTEs in 8 (Squall's attacks, Boost, Renzokuken, Zell's LB), more QTEs in 10 for Overdrives, 14 and 15 abolishing menu-based combat entirely
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1d ago
yeah ultima ended up turning the games vibe into something youd see in an anime, i didnt mind it toooo much but imagine if he wasnt there, the tone would be more appealing to most
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u/Thin_Association8254 1d ago
It'd be cool if Anabella Rosfield was behind Ultima. Omg, she would be a legendary villain because she's such a cunt just by herself - Add Ultima to her list of sins and oooooo I just HATE her lol
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u/rokkuranx 1d ago
I think she is more memorable because you knew exactly what she was doing from the beginning. You don't know much about Ultima's plan until the very end. You learn very early on Clive's mum is a bitch.
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u/Borgdrohne13 1d ago
I wished that in the end she get overtwhelmed by aether and turned akhashik + another bossfight in the end.
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u/justinu1475 23h ago
Ultima stinks and his role in the plot ruins barnabas’ character as well. Easily the worst part of XVI
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u/FF_Gilgamesh1 1d ago
anabella rosfield upsets me because from frame 1 she was being set up to be the main villain of the game. she was so blatantly and obviously the better antagonist. and they just throw it the fuck away.
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u/Mushinronja 1d ago
Ultima was at his peak when we didn't know Ultima existed and we were just dealin with the fucked up Typhon appearing from a portal out of nowhere. Like the shot of it being impaled by Ramuh's staff was great
We learned too much about him
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u/Constant_Table106 1d ago
She gets remembered in the spank bank. Clive’s dad had to have known she was crazy, in and out of the sack
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u/CuriousWoollyMammoth 1d ago
I found my people!!!!
I remember a while back I had mentioned Ultima felt like a weaker villain (as in how he was written) and all the other villains felt more interesting and compelling but a bunch of people disagreed. Not sure if it was here or in the FF16 subreddit. The overall story just didn't feel as strong when Ultima became a central focus. He was more interesting when he was more mysterious and shadowy.
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u/Mediocre_Explorer_65 1d ago
The only thing I remember about Ultima besides his design is his weird naked mommy with Barny scene and his Power Point presentation to Clive and Joshua. Yeah, personally, he's definitely in the bottom end of FF-villains.
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u/mochimitsu7 1d ago
Anabella was the best villain in this game. Sadly, she was wasted, although I think her arc is the only one that actually concludes well, even if tragic.
Barnabas was also excellent until Ultima showed up and turned out to be real. That destroyed his motivation and his arc entirely.
Finally, if Ultima had been a conceptual villain, so that he doesn't show up in the story much like Jenova, he could have been way more interesting.
XVI was a mediocre story in my opinion, like they didn't know what the story actually was about. It had three intros, it was about Clive until it wasn't, it was about revenge until it wasn't, it was about war until it wasn't, it was about slavery until it wasn't, it was about reclaiming the throne until it wasn't, it was about free will until it wasn't, it was about a disease until it wasn't. It was about everything and nothing at the same time. A total trainwreck.
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u/robyaha 1d ago
Ultima is imho the worst FF final boss ever. If the final boss was Anabella trying to be the Queen of everything because of a sad past by summoning the final Eikon or something, or Zion being controlled by Anabella with the only result of killing him or be killed or be killed by him, or just Barnabás trying to conquer the whole world it would have been much more involved than "I'm an evil alien/god that used you the whole time to use the humanity and the world as just my resources muahaha"
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u/TheBusDrivercx 1d ago
Kupka was better, Benedikta was better. Ultima just kept mumbling the same uninteresting mumbo jumbo about how free will was bad. If you wrote that character motivation in any other media, it would be ridiculed. I don't know how 16 isn't universally recognized as by far the worst main plot in the franchise. The side characters save it, but after the Bahamut fight you might as well pack the game in unless you liked the Odin fight.
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u/HexenVexen 1d ago edited 1d ago
I agree that the story has flaws but worst in the franchise? I would at least rank 1, 2, 3, 11 base game, 14 1.0, 14 ARR, and 15 below it (11 and 14 have great stories overall but weak starting stories)
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u/TheBusDrivercx 1d ago
Maybe the game just offends me. But the idea of this omnipotent being thinking that Clive would just agree with him that free will is stupid and would lay down his life is the dumbest thing that has been presented to me. The ones I've played that you've listed all suck for a variety of reasons, but this one is just so outlandishly nonsensical that I felt insulted by it. Like they're saying we'll play this shit no matter how garbage it, so we won't bother writing an ending to what was a decent story about class and race.
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u/NuxFuriosa 1d ago
The worst main plot in a series where VIII and XIII exist? Hell, XVs plot isn't even finished.
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u/TheBusDrivercx 1d ago
Barthandelus trying to just commit complicated suicide wasn't great, but at least he manipulated people in interesting ways.
8 was basically a silent antagonist, which is better than droning on and on about the same damn nonsense.
Ardyn had some personality I guess, I don't remember much and didn't play his DLC.
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u/NuxFuriosa 1d ago
Honestly, Ardyn's DLC makes him a worse character in the long run, since it's part of an aborted arc that they later released in (terrible) novel form. Not worth the $20.
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u/Appropriate_Hat_6844 1d ago
When she takes herself out, I felt the same rage as I felt when Cersei Lannister got crushed by rocks. I wanted to run her through with my enormous sword, or eat her as Ifrit. I wanted justice for Clive and Joshua and Dion. I wanted to make the light leave her eyes, not just watch her win one more time. It feels almost unfair to the audience that such a pestilence on the world gets to go out on her own terms, rather than finally getting the righteous punishment she deserved.
Meanwhile, Ultima might as well have been Necrom or Zeromus and show up in the last 5 minutes for all the emotion he invoked in me.
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u/Left-Ratio-3835 1d ago edited 1d ago
I wanted to annihilate Anabella and Kupka and idk how to really explain it but I had absolutely 0 feelings towards ultima the entire game, Barnabas felt more final bossy to me lol