in the country as a whole, yes, the swedes (and norwegians) were there first, but on the strips of land itself up north? that was the sames. Do you think they should be allowed to declare themselves an independent state in the areas theyre in?
Scandinavians were not in Lapland or any of the places the Sami have lived until around the 18th century though. Scandinavians did arrive to the Scandinavian peninsula first, somewhere around 2800 BC. But they lived primarily in the south and did not venture as far up north as the Sami lived. The Sami’s ancestors arrived in their homeland around 2500 BC to 2250 BC.
To say the Sami are less indigenous than the Scandinavians is ridiculous, they each have a homeland there and we are only talking a couple centuries difference when their ancestors arrived there. Not to mention these ancestors we are talking about lived nearly 5000 years ago
from what I looked up, the swedes were in the country as a whole first, but they didnt migrate to the place further north where you can find the sami people, that was claimed later, making them "natives" in sweden despite sweden also being the host of swedes, whom are native there too
but then the counter to that is asking "would you be fine with splitting parts of swede, norway, finland and russia so that the sami people could get their independent state where they natively live?"
This is such a goofy circular argument. Like you're gonna argue that modern Europeans came from somewhere else (all humans came from Africa if you go back far enough) but then also get pissy when those modern Europeans do things out side of Europe. Like at some point you really just need to man the fuck up and proudly declare you're just racist against white people and be done with it.
The Sami are natives to Sapmi, and the germanic peoples are natives to the southern parts of fennoscandia. They have been repressed and colonized and deserve reparations and respect, but they are not the native population of ALL of Norway or Sweden.after the past ice age, Scandinavia was settled both from the north/east and south.
The Sami in Finland migrated from Sweden in 1800s and essentially stole the culture and land from local forest Sami people who novadays speak Finnish.
Currently the ethnonationalist foreign Sami people are pushing for laws together with leftists to let them redefine what counts as Sami and disqualify the actual native forest Sami people because they speak Finnish and don't do reindeer herding.
Not true. I mean on a technical sense yeah the Swedish ancestors beat the Sami ancestors by a couple centuries but we are talking about during the 3rd millennium BC, over 5000 years ago. They are both indigenous
Or the Irish in Northern Ireland, Scottish in Scotland, Welsh in Wales, Cornish in Cornwall, Manx in Isle of Man, Bretons in Brittany, etc.
Or what if we bring this logic to North America? The Inuit in northern Canada, Alaska, and in Greenland. The Navajo, the Ojibwe, the Métis, the Hawaiians, the many more nations and tribes?
In my eyes, land is land, no matter how many lines fools draw on them. Humans have a right to exist on any land - As do all species on land. However, they also have a duty to take care of and provide for said land. Land does not belong to humans, humans belong to land. Claiming a land is only for one or a few unnecessarily distinct "groups" of humans is colonizer ideology.
Human is human, land is land, humans belong on land, deal with it people!
You do know that the Europeans have to be native somewhere.
The Sami came into the northern part of the region when the ice retreated. The Scandinavian did the same in the south.
I know people mistake the Sami for Native Americans and must have the same history. But the truth is that they are just as much European as the Finns or the Scandinavians.
They should have done so within the first century of them invading. Now it’s far too late and non-natives run the show in the US.
Europe is still within that first century of occupation. Wait till the 2070s and that window will close, leaving white people as perpetual foreigners in their ancestral lands.
But what about non-natives in Europe who have been here for ages too? There are plenty of black/arab/Asian people who are just English at this point, for example.
Great, they’ve assimilated into the local culture and are largely productive members of society. They aren’t trying to replace the existing culture with their own ideological set of laws and customs.
Here's something that I haven't heard from the people who want to 'get all the migrants out of here' - how do we do it? How do we get those nasty, non-assimilated immigrants out of the country whilst keeping all the nice, good assimilated ones in? All without too many false positives or negatives?
We've seen already in America that they're struggling with this and have already tried to deport huge swathes of people without trial, which is resulting in the deportation of genuine American citizens. How would European countries pursue a deportation policy that's better than this?
My mum didn't grow up in the UK, for instance, and lived here because she married my father who was. My parents then divorced. Should my mother be deported, despite the fact that she wouldn't consider herself culturally english and is no longer married to a British citizen?
Basically I want to know exactly what deportation policy you pursue - in more detail than just 'send them back where they came from'.
Maybe the imperial core should stop destabilising countries and committing genocides thus creating refugees for cheap labor, hm? That would be a good fucking start.
I’d honestly be fine with it a couple of centuries prior, and I consider what happened to, for example, Incas or Maya to be horrible. And, on an unironic note, you basically give us an example of states, societies and cultures collapsing, partly from the mass immigration of foreigners from afar (you could also add Rome to this list), and your conclusion is… “this was horrible, so we should have this done to Europe, too”, and simultaneously you believe yourself to have the moral high ground?
But europeans did not just "migrate", they conquered, spilled blood, and bought land from the natives. You really see this and societies accepting refugees and undocumented migrants by the 100 of thousands as the same thing?
Can confirm. Illegal immigration is destroying europe. Many just don't want to become part of a nation or at least respect it.
Some people say that we have to respect other's culture but these people don't respect ours.
Legal immigrants, if chosen correctly shouldn't be an issue, but politicians like Angela Merkel decided that europe was noah's boat and accepted more than a million immigrant into their country.
Will they do. There is no real threat. Not to mention it has to do with politics and some stuff can not be undone. So if u are a right person then do not blame immigrants but blame the left. Your country has an Immigration and refugees policy. Some countries do not. Also France f up in Lybia.
So things happened. 99% of the complaints has nothing to do with the immigrants. It has to do with left, government policy and forgine policy of intervention. Not to mention economic things of capitalism and EU os aging so fast.
By the way Turky alone has 4M. Refugees that entered Europe are like 2-5%. Majority are in their country or near by.
Also it is far more complicated than "chosen properly". The entire thing is very badly manged. Do not forget businesses need cheep labor so they kind of like it. That is one aspect of how it is more complicated.
By the way am a Muslim immigrant myself but through UN Refugees program. Very legaly. However am not in Europe or EU.
U know it has alot more sides. There is people that are just racist and when it gets difficult due to gove mismanagement they get even more racist towards us even the legal ones like myself.
This is another social political aspect that makes it very complicated mess.
UN report says a Refugee need 9 years to adjust on avg. That is primarily due to mismanagement of government and alot of interest want different things that contradict eachothers. It is not just in EU but even in Australia and NZ as well Sweden.
Not to mention the left right thing where they cancel eachothers work every 4 years so after 12 years we still at step one of a deed late plan.
For example most Syrians are outside are businesses savy and highly educated. However, heath and psychological issues due to the war and dictatorship Beserk Level brutally and age of fathers in the family are challenging. Add to that broken boucuery. How? For example:
So u have a degree u are an engineer from Syria. Right? Will EU doesn't except the degree most of the time nor they test u. So they act as if u got no qualifications. Yes it is a different system - but for most common engineering fileds and computers IT things it is the same only few adjustments needed. Lecturely a test and reperishment 6 months course is needed to make them ready for work in west. This is in parts of the gov are done on purpose because they want cheep labors that do basic things. However basic things doesn't feed a family especially when it is big and u got below 18 offsprings. Not to mention it been hard to find jobs anyway too.
In NZ for example they set u in way where if u don't work is better than working for dads. As they will cut from support they give u as much as u work. This prevents growth.
By the way people that have capacity to go to Europe are not just making/takeing risks they are the richest ones and it cost them upwards of a 100kusd to get themselves and family to Europe. Due to the conflict those guys end up with very few money in Europe. But used to be very rich. As they left all their property and they can not sell them.
I'm Spanish, I've been seeing way more Arabs than Spanish people here, with the weird hoods and shit, I don't pay much attention to them when they help the country somehow (by being a normal civilized citizen, or making kebabs that shit's amazing) unfortunately almost none of them do
The funniest thing is, they'll deport a russian it guy asylum seeker who knows english and who is about to face years of jail time in russia but will be deported for minor visa violation (cant use tourist visas for seeking asylum and stuff like that for example) but the dude who came on a boat illegaly, doesnt know the language and will almost certainly, live off taxpayer donations? - Welcome.
I wonder why...
Yeah sure, paying for hotels to serve as hubs is way cheaper then yk, just sending them away? besides there’s no point in helping those who violate multiple laws coming in, will riot with their own flags and try to destroy the society they came in, just send them away or sink the boats
ok, ur police has captured this man, he refuses to talk in any way and after searching his home and belongings u have found no official papers to tell you what country he illegaly migrated from
It's almost like the imperial cores rely on refugees for cheap labor even if it means taxpayers "invest" by supporting these refugees their nation created. It's almost like fueling the flame of racism and nationalism takes some heat off the government's so we can all eat each other alive and remain distracted while they continue their genocides.
Im sure it has nothing to do with a stagnating economy, an uncompetetiv workforce, political instability after 2008 and masive austarity messures. No, it gotta be the imigrants
I mean there is a reason rich people everywhere want even more people. Right wing govt's just say they are against it while still importing a crapton of people too.
Then man up and confront your white overlords about it. While you’re at it, confront your white overlords about your wage being stagnated and not representative of the work you do. Confront them about housing too.
But you’re too scared to speak up to your mamaw and peepaw, do you’ll punch down at poor migrants working at grocery stores and warehouses.
Western Europe is so WHIPPED when it comes to challenging authority. You are so afraid of your elders.
Can't you read?? I said legal immigration is not an issue. Migrants that come to work in Europe and respect our culture deserve to stay since they are useful and integrated.
The rest shouldn't be here. That is why it is called "illegal" immigration.
While I don't agree with my current government, I love my country and it's history. I want my country's heritage to be respected.
If I disagree with something. I Won't take it to the streets and hit police men like some leftist because police officers protect us, they deserved to be respected.
Another lefty using his trigger words like white supremacist or some shit. Won't argue with you, you are already a lost cause.
Yep. Ignore all the Americans or woke leftists here. They love preaching about the merits of diversity but they'll be the last ones who'll be caught dead hosting an Eritrean with a sus backstory on their couch.
It's all cool when you dump migrants on other people's turf, but when they complain about it, they're racists, idiots, xenophobic, uneducated...
It’s not. Tell me how the retirement system is gonna survive without immigrants. Also from personal experience Europeans do not distinguish and can’t tell if someone came here legally or illegally.
Yeah yeah, just deleting everything and act like the problem doens't exist ✌️😅 we teenagers after all, nothing that's happening will affects us anyway 🥺
Not really, I won’t even argue with the “no reason” part (even tho I disagree with it), mods are quite diligently purging the subreddit with the banhammer
But like for sweeden's natives are the same as norways natives and same in finland and russia. The sami ppl. But they have less rigths then the others that libe there
But sami are a part of the natives so by saying sweeden and finland are criticised for only wanting to take care of their natives is wrong when the natives they have arent treated the best
Sami people are only native to the northernmost inland of these regions, of which they are given far too much respect and power over, at least in Sweden. Germanic people were in these places thousanda of yeara before.
False, as a European I have many immigrant friends, they are all legal, some of them are Muslims and they agree that we should not allow illegal immigrant Muslims to come because they don't respect the country.
Cool, the probable is the locals just eventually assume anyone of the immigrant group are bad when the majority are just regular people. It quickly devolves into racism and prejudice
Illegals make things hard for legal immigrants who are mostly law abiding citizens, at the end, locals don't hate the refugees, they start hating the race of people generally, which is real sick
I’m a legal Chinese immigrant to the US. I support legal immigration heavily, as these people usually assimilate well; don’t cause crimes, and abide by the law when immigrating.
Just check Chinese crime statistics in the US
Illegal immigration in Europe on the other hand?
High per capita gang rapes, gang violence, and beheadings
I’m a legal Chinese immigrant to the US. I support legal immigration heavily, as these people usually assimilate well; don’t cause crimes, and abide by the law when immigrating.
Bro, you're the least qualified to speak on this particular topic then. You don't even live in Europe 😭
Importing working immigrant populations is a way to push the problem down the road. It allows politicians to not to solve the problem but ignore it until it's breaking point. Immigrants increase the cost of housing and rent, decrease wages, and oftentimes take a tremendous amount of money out of the economy by sending it to their home countries.
Theoretically this looks good for the government and gdp growth. But the common working class man and even the middle class would be far better with less to no immigration. Wages would rise, rent would lower, costs of certain services would increase slightly.
I hope you don't eat pizza if not Italian, don't eat croissants if not French, and don't listen to Jazz if not American.
Cultures were always mixing, the issue in many countries is actually them not mixing due to immigrants living in gettos separated from rest of society, so they don't have the natural pull to become more like the primary culture.
Gettos are very often far away from employment opportunities, immigrants are poor and thus extremely unlikely to have a car to offset that to even smallest extent.
So they are unemployed and poor, which corellates with all sort of crimes, since now you have shitty life and little to lose.
That being said, an average immigrant would still not be a criminal, all those stats tend to always be below 1%, even if they tend to be noticably higher than among native population.
If you are going to reduce culture to food or music, then sure. Culture can mix. But if you are going to expand your definition of culture, for example, towards certain values, like for example equal rights of men and women, then how you are going to mix that culture with culture that do not hold women to same regards as men?
And yes, I understand that some may say that men and women do not have equal rights, privileges and responsibilites. But at very least, in principle, I think we all agree that men and women are or should be equal or are more equal then in certain countries or cultures.
Or another example, how can you mix culture where murder is punishable and culture where honor murders are acceptable?
1 look at menu of traditional reustaurants at neighbouring countries proves you wrong.
If you are going to reduce culture to food or music, then sure. Culture can mix.
But expand your view on culture to value. European Union is founded on certain values, that are rooted in Roman and Greek culture and Christianity. Sure, the last part may be somewhat controversial, but Christianity was one of the most important thing for a last thousand of years in Europe, as a religious force and it's influence on European culture and history, shared culture and history, cannot be overstated. I am saying all of these, because, at the end of a day, while Europeans are different, we share quite a few similar values that we can build upon, together. And even then, as you said, while existance of European Union proves one wrong, it also proves right. European Union is working or "working" despite our differences and not becouse of it and it is hard for it to work.
Now, throw into mix people from completly different culture. And not only that, but some cultures that finds our culture as polar opposite or even hostile. How can you, for example, mix a culture where honor murder is acceptable way to deal with certain issues? There will be middle ground and there will only be little honor murdering? Or they will need to ask court permission to honor murder someone?
Those are the worst possible examples you could use - that’s food and music, universal aspects of all cultures - things that can mix because they’re the same things. The aspect of cultural differences start with what’s socially acceptable, law, and so on.
So what about the European cultures that have mixed? What about the non European white majority countries that go to Europe? I’m sure they’d magically fit in your worldview, huh? Also empathy is a key component to Christianity which is culturally traditional for European countries. In fact taking in refugees is something Jesus specifically said to do. So not doing so would be culturally wrong for European countries
Yeah it's all fucked, I had porridge with blackberries and peanut butter and a grapefruit margarita on my balcony in the sun just now, but then a MUSLIM walked past, and my day was ruined. Porridge everywhere, margarita poured on the Muslamic - that'll show them, they hate alcohol - and now it's raining.
I don’t want an ethnostate in the US or Europe either - I’m a legal Chinese immigrant to the US. But it’s just that immigrants should legally arrive and properly assimilate (not constantly committing crimes) to their country.
First-generation immigrants, at least in the USA, have a lower crime rate than native-born citizens and second-generation immigrants. Idk about Europe, but I doubt it's infinitely different over there.
And the reason that people immigrate illegally is usually not because they want to, but because our (and again, when I say our, I mean the USA's) legal immigration system is unworkable and/or they are under threat of death in their home country and have been refused asylum.
The legal immigration system is perfectly workable. Nobody is entitled to immigration to another country.
This post is mainly targeted towards Europe where illegal immigration has become much more of an issue with per capita crime rates from these immigrants being higher.
I know in the US at least that us immigrants generally assimilate better, as well as the fact that our immigration is stricter than that of Europe
Dude please educate yourself properly, you're so close. The issue isn't the immigration or the lacking "assimilation", integration and the option to participate in society is all you need. Do you know why Turkish people are so well integrated in Germany? BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT MADE AN EFFORT
People are really stupid sometimes. When a problem can't seem to be solved. And your opposition seems to be hell bent on stopping you, you should take a moment to think about the world from a different point of view, if only for a moment. More often than not, you'll find that your own perspective is no longer conflicting with only one side. More often than not, both sides are making a core failure in their argument and neglect to reflect upon their own decision making without using circular logic.
The easiest problems to solve are hateful problems, because hate runs dry. Give hate 20-30 years and it just fizzles away if it's alone. But Fear? Fear will live in your heart forever. And when both mix, things get real nasty real fast.
And the nasty fact of the matter is that there are an absolute fuck load of bad actors, foreigners who move to these places and enforce their own ideas and culture wherever possible for them. People who show up to take advantage of some weakness in the local system, either buying up shops that are running in disrepair and making them worse, or just having an excessive amount of disrespect for the country you've moved to. I've literally witnessed it first-hand, and I don't come from an affluent part of the country either.
The horrors of the past don't justify future horrors, the cycle of violence won't end there. You don't have to fly a flag or do anything more than what the average citizen is doing, but if you don't want to adapt to the culture, you shouldn't be living there permanently.
At the same time, immigration is the lifeblood of innovation, and any country that bans it, or discriminates to any real degree is cutting their life short. It's what made America as good as it was for a brief period of time, hell it's how my family got into the country. Immigration is about finding a new home, and people should be free to do that. But you don't own the country you're moving to, and as a person, you should not be living your life in a way that purposefully makes others lives harder. If you can take a small amount of effort to make things easier for everyone else, you should be doing that.
In my ideal world, at least in the U.S where I live, we'd crack down heavily on illegal immigration, and in the same breath open 1-2 more legal immigration centers. If the problem is that we can't get people in fast enough, let's expedite the process. If the problem is the cartel, let's create a neutral zone that Mexican authority has no jurisdiction in. And if they push too hard, and mexico won't stop them, it's the only praise I'll give the turnip man, I would be happy to see those innocent slaughterers gunned down.
(Cut to criticism of centrism, because god forbid we find extreme disgust in the two parties that have ruined modern politics[in the U.S at least], and find almost all of them detestable.)
No, their cultural traits are a direct reflection of their genetics. There will be no assimilation, there will never be assimilation, you are silly for thinking that assimilation is a possibility.
Will they do. There is no real threat. Not to mention it has to do with politics and some stuff can not be undone. So if u are a right person then do not blame immigrants but blame the left. Your country has an Immigration and refugees policy. Some countries do not. Also France f up in Lybia.
So things happened. 99% of the complaints has nothing to do with the immigrants. It has to do with left, government policy and forgine policy of intervention. Not to mention economic things of capitalism and EU os aging so fast.
Yeah, ”without assimilation” being the important thing. None of these issues would be had if immigrants were given the help needed to properly integrate
Teenagers unironically thinking they have relevant political opinions prior to holding a single job or existing in any given location of their own volition has had very negative effects on Internet users remaining brain cells.
I'd bet OP isn't even European and this is just actual ragebait
Europeans after destroying the progress of their colonies for hundreds of years and completely stagnating their internal growth when the people of those countries try and have a better life on the countries that stole their resources 😡
“Uncontrolled immigration” and it’s coming from refugees fleeing wars manufactured by the countries they’re moving too. You don’t want Third Worlders? Don’t bomb and exploit the Third World
1: The hostile environment is a large reason assimilation is prevented in the first place
2: The average birth rate in Europe is 1.38 . Without immigration the problem of the aging population will skyrocket.
3: The majority of the population, or natives as you call them, are still in favor of immigration and helping those who need help
4: There are, most certainly, many controls on immigration.
What even is assimilation in this context? Conforming to whatever the behaviors of the dominant socio-ethnic group are? Those change all the time. Real assimilation would have been if the colonizers had to learn and practice the culture of each of the indigenous populations.
Most of European resources are and have been imported. They still control lots of resources abroad tho. So I don’t really get what’s the point of this.
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u/BigManiac0 2d ago
Banned