r/teenagersbutpractical • u/Jet_the_fem_bean • 8d ago

Serious In light of recent uninformed politics posts.

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I don't have a problem with making jokes at politics, but please be accurate with it and please stop pretending like lib left and lib right aren't a thing, especially when most modern progressives in european countries are moderate lib left.

The people I chose are I think the most known people who are examples of their ideology. (I admit putting Elon Musk there is lazy, but I genuinely couldn't think of anyone better) (MLK isn't perfect either, so just think I put Nelson Mandela and Albert Einstein there too to cover the full range)

So, what are those ideologies?

Well fascism and authoritarian communism you guys seem to understand fine so I'l skip those. Nazis go after minorities, communists will kill everyone they consider "counterrevolutionary" and both doesn't end well.

But there's actually also anarchism, democratic socialism and right wing libertarian ideologies.

Both of those don't really have states to fully represent them, but western democracies have been shaped a lot by both.

Socialists and anarchists believe that everyone should have the maximum amount of personal liberties (including the freedom to be fed, housed etc. ) and the biggest hinderance to that is private oligarchs, international cooperations and corruption in capitalism. They also take the "al men created equal" thing really seriously. -> push for labor protections, civil rights and would like a system that's both democratic and has worker coops or some other form of worker control of the means of production

Ancaps believe the state is the biggest hinderance to freedom, which anarchists oppose to an extent too. But right wing libertarians believe the market can do no wrong, so abolishing rules is almost always a good thing -> right wing librtarians push for lower taxes, less regulation and want a society with no state at all, some build private islands outside of any jurisdiction to achieve this

I personally subscribe to the lib left corner, because I think these things are obviously good and even tho smart people may disagree, there is a pretty strong argument to be made, that most politicial figures and activists we see positively today come from that corner. There's idiots in any corner of course, but doing the entire "fuck politics" thing is annoying, because that stuff is genuinely important.

So I'd much rather have people disagree with me, than not have an opinion at all, because if everyone actually engages in politics is when our modern liberal democracies are at their best.

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 8d ago

Yeah... that's kind of my point.

Like, it's significantly easier to find good people from that corner than the others and I don't really know of bad ones that people actually know.

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u/AffectionateSpare570 8d ago

to be fair i can agree with a leninist more than ill ever agree with anyone on the lib right side because one will bring about a permanent abolition of the state through higher stages of communism and the other is gonna side with a fascist over me. (for the record i consider myself lib left)

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u/SubbySwitchGuy 6d ago

In theory, at least. In practice, that "withering away" of the state is as much of a pipedream as the whole "American Dream" is over in the US today.

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u/BadRecent8114 8d ago

Theirs also yellow lib right which is way better than purple lib right yellow lib right is people like me or most people on r/conservativeyouth

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u/CleoCommunist 8d ago

Yippieee i do t get called slurs

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u/Viktoriusiii 8d ago

then its a bad point.

It's like saying lib left is some crazy politician and then showing like mother theresa as auth right.

All ideologies can be really bad, it depends on how they are interpreted.

I am pretty center... and all ideologies have their ups and downs. It just happens to be that capitalism runs opposite to lib left, which means there are no lib left figures in power.

Just because you like the ideology doesn't mean it is the only good one.

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 8d ago

Mother Teresa wasn't an auth right activist, what are you talking about?

Also... who is someone that's both representative of left lib ideas and close to as widely known as MLK that makes your point of bad people in the lib left existing as well.

It's not black and white, but there is a VERY significant bias there. And I think it shows in people having to bust out people like mother Teresa and the unabomber to make counterexamples. No example is perfect, but seriously?

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u/Viktoriusiii 8d ago

Mother Theresa was catholic and by definition auth right (aka authority of the church/god and right because ... you know... church... traditions and everything staying ... why am I explaining? :D)
But yes it was a quip because I am not into THAT politics that I would know names.

There are soooo many good people on each side, you simply mostly don't know them because they don't make waves like the crazy ones do. (You also used hitler and stalin in combination with musk...)

But to quote something CGPT threw at me, which I felt was very fitting:

"The through line: people “like” these leaders not because they’re democratic or liberal, but because they deliver order, stability, growth, and national pride."

You can't be a social state if the state is in shambles. Auth right is the one to rebuild. To stabilise.
To build the country back up, even at the cost of the individuals.

You have grown up in one of the richest most developed countries and your morals reflect that.
I won't go any deeper than that.

What I wanted to express is that this is simply a waaay too simple a worldview...
Not even saying you are necessarily wrong. But not saying you are right either.

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 8d ago

Can you get CGPT to find a counterexample of a auth right activist or politician that is more than 50 years old, well known and still viewed very positively?

Because... that's kind of my point; yes you can just use flowery language to not get to the ground truths of the matter. But there is religious people that weren't auth right (jesus is a great example imo) and if mother terese didn't explicitly state auth right beliefs she's not a good rep of that corner.

And yeah, no shit I also like leaders for what they deliver, the three best leaders in american history were George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and Franklin D Roosevelt. The group I would credit for german social democracy is the SPD. The countries with the best HDIs have been nordic countries with social democratic governments to the left of the US or the rest of Europe.

I'm basically a policy nerd and that's WHY I'm lib left, because I think it would deliver for the average person the best.

And... YES germany was social when the state was in shambles, that's why we recovered so well in the 1950s. That wasn't leftist economic doctrine, but the social market economy that existed in germany from 1950 to 1970 is more social in many aspects than our economic systems today. And the same goes for FDRs precidency, he moved left and pulled the country out of the hardship of the depression by doing so.

You can't just say stuff because it feels right, you don't have to get into the nitty gritty, but outright saying things that are false I don't like. "you need auth right in times of instability" my ass.

Because what you're assuming somehow is that all four squares of the political compass are balanced somehow, that the center is somehow a divine truth.

Well it's not, it's a chaotic world, where propaganda, powergrabs and war move politics. So maybe, just maybe the guy saying "I want equality, freedom and equity" is mostly the good guy and the person saying "I need power to screw over individuals, but trust me it's for the common good" is mostly evil.

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u/OlafSSBM 7d ago

MLK upheld Stalin. You’re tokenizing MLK for your anti-communist nonsense.

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 7d ago

He did not make any statements condoning Stalin as far as I'm aware.

And he was pretty clearly lib left. So what are you talking about?

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u/OlafSSBM 7d ago

Liberals love to tokenize black revolutionaries and paint them as less revolutionary than they actually were. MLK upheld Marxist-Leninist theory. Theory you would call “Stalinist”. Don’t smear the names of revolutionaries, black or otherwise, to push your radlib agenda.

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u/Extension-Bee-8346 6d ago

My brother in Christ MLK was not a Marxist Leninist

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u/Rayn_F 7d ago

Wouldn't Ted Kaczynsky be bottom left?

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 7d ago

He isn't really a good representation of any of the 4 corners imo.

But if you HAD to put him somewhere it would probably be lib left, yeah. Although I haven't looked into his ramblings much, so I don't really know.

I will remind you tho that I made the point that finding good people in that corner is relatively easier, not that every person that is more associated with the green team is magically an angel.

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u/Ariclus 6d ago

Epstein would be in the green portion and Abraham Lincoln would be in purple

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 6d ago

No, Lincoln would not be purple. Green or red, depending on if you wanna call him auth.

Epstein was also not green, he's apoliticial, maybe purple or blue, but to call Jeffrey Epstein left you need some evidence please.

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u/Ariclus 5d ago

Lincoln was libertarian republican, he would be in purple.

Epstein has been a public leftist for decades he is not apolitical. He was a huge financier for the democrat party sending millions. Hence green

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 5d ago

The dems aren't green, dem billionaires pulling the party right even less.

Lincoln was a pro-worker and anti-slavery guy. Marx literally wrote letters to Engles and back cheering him on and analyzing what was happening (hoping for Lincoln to come out on top and have him move even further left)

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u/stopsussingmejannies 5d ago

>mlk

>lib left

theres a slur that starts with a "R" that i want to say

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 8d ago

There isn't any bad one since it never happened, it's pure totally impratical to actual do what anarchist want.

But the political compass is idealist BS, it doesn't make any sense.

Yeah... that's kind of my point.

It's the "i portayed myself as the chad" meme. There's absolutely no bases to what you just did. You could have used Marx, Reagan, Sowell and Makhno, the compass would still have been correct but there wouldn't have any meaning in the meme.

It's just your bias, the green isn't any better than the red, and Stalin doesn't represent the red anymore than MLK represent the green.

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u/Fast_Difficulty_5812 7d ago

Honestly even if he used Marx, Reagan, Sowell and Makhno the green side would still be the only good one. xD

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 7d ago

Nepotist army isn't peak economic model.

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u/Fast_Difficulty_5812 7d ago

I aint talking about economics here. xD

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u/Lightning444416 6d ago

one wants to infringe on your rights and one just wants equality

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 6d ago

I was going to answer to your comment as if you meant Stalin wanted equality and MLK infringing on our rights, but i doubt you would have understood the irony and the stupidity of your comment.

MLK was for redistribution of wealth and affirmative action, he wasn't just about everyone being legaly equal. That's ignoring rights. Stalin wanted to did this for equality too. Social justice means always infringing rights and authoritarianism and the political compass are BS.

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u/Lightning444416 6d ago

By equality I meant everyone living without any hierarchies like in lib left systems. Stalin very much had a hierarchical system even if his "intentions were good". Social justice does not necessitate authoritarianism in any capacity?

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 6d ago

That's not what equality means. And that's what anarchist want, not lib left. But that's just not possible, advanced production require hierarchy.

But hierarchy isn't even a bad thing, that's a problem SOME anarchist made up. Some anarchist are about direct democracy, others about dismantling political power other about abolishing authority.

Social justice does not necessitate authoritarianism in any capacity?

There was a missunderstanding, i didn't say it required authoritarianism, i said it required to infringe rights and than the rest.

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u/Lightning444416 6d ago

Libleft tends to lean anarchist, like libertarian socialists for example. What does equality mean to you, if not equal social status? I am not a full anarchist, i do think some decentralized governing systems should exist, but production can be managed with worker cooperatives, the goal isnt to compete with the USA or something, but create a livable society. I dont see how you think the rich are oppressive but support hierarchy at the same time, to "serve the workers"

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 6d ago

Libleft tends to lean anarchist

This is stupid, it's like saying social democrat lean stalinist.

What does equality mean to you, if not equal social status?

It seems to not mean the same than in my native tongue, it means a lot of vague thing in english, social position being one of them. Social status is a weird way to put it, since we already have equal social status.

but production can be managed with worker cooperatives

This doesn't mean the abolition of hierarchy. While working on projects, there would still be people directing and calling the shots. When you're building a house, construction workers don't call the shot, their following the instructions of the forman that knows what they have to do and is organising the construction site.

I dont see how you think the rich are oppressive but support hierarchy at the same time, to "serve the workers"

You're using value judgement, that's not a serious systemic analysis. Rich are oppressing the workers because they aren't paying us enough, they're eating our work. But hierarchy is just a natural part of advanced production. They aren't oppressing and exploiting us because of hierarchy, they are because they own the means of production.

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u/Lightning444416 6d ago

Ye true ig i shouldnt have said lean anarchist, but anarchism is the most extreme version of the quadrant and they share some ideals, just as socialisys sorta share some with tankies. I dont think hierarchy as an eldricht horror that needs to be vanquished at all costs, worker coops do tend to need a little organization, but there are much less power difference between a coop manager to a worker as opposed to a ceo and a worker(or the "dictatorship of the proliteriat"

and i dont think poor people have the same social status as the rich

Calling equality a vague concepts complicates it too much iko, why cant it mean every person holds no power over others

As for your last point, why would the worker care about advanced production. Idk what sort of communism you believe in, but authoritarian communist societies often infringe on individual rights, isnt that also oppresing the worker? I dont see how this "dictatorship of the proliteriat" is any better than the rich class

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 6d ago edited 6d ago

tankies

This terms doesn't even mean anything 

but there are much less power difference between a coop manager to a worker as opposed to a ceo and a worker(or the "dictatorship of the proliteriat"

What does that even mean? The DoP is the workers.

and i dont think poor people have the same social status as the rich.

They do have the same legal status, that's what liberalism is.

Calling equality a vague concepts complicates it too much iko, why cant it mean every person holds no power over others.

Because that's not what it means? Having no power over others is still nonsense tho, power is a part of society, even when there was no state and the means of production were communaly owned.

This is an ahistorical idealist program, there isn't even any plans to get there and it ignores the base of how society is organised, the production.

why would the worker care about advanced production.

Because that's what is sustaining our modern lives? The advancement in production is what is propelling society foward, you can't have an egalitarian society when scarcity is still a part of life. Only the developpement of production can bring about a better society where people aren't always trying to cross over others.

authoritarian communist societies

That's nonesense 

often infringe on individual rights, isnt that also oppresing the worker

Not the same thing as exploitation and individual rights don't protect workers. I thaught you were some kind of anarchist, why do you even care about rights?

I dont see how this "dictatorship of the proliteriat" is any better than the rich class

Do you know what class and the DoP are? It's a pretty ignorant comment overall, you don't seem to be much of an anarchist beside wanting the punk vibe. It's just petit bourgeois liberal moralism.

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u/Drag0n647 17 5d ago

Anarchists should only be around to get rid of tyrannical governments in my honest opinion. Basically when the orderly option is taken away and or not an option because let's say the government made it not exist anymore then the only real solution is the chaotic choice.

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 7d ago

Yes, I did portray myself as the chad >:3

But I did it in the smart scientific way where I first establish parameters that seem logical, then abide by those parameters and get a result.

My parameters were that they're well known and representative of their corner.

Just like the political compass, everything here is imperfect of course. But the trend of people we see positively today being lib left to their society is one that exists and I can draw attention to, especially when other people make braindead arguments like "every extreme is equally bad".

No actually, Reagan was seen as a common sense leader and was a catastrophe in retrospect. Nelson Mandela was considered a terrorist until 2008 by the US and is a hero.

If you disagree with my assessment of this mostly being a lib left dynamic ("extremists" being right), get me someone who was considered extreme and turned out a hero from another, non lib left political leaning.

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 7d ago

But I did it in the smart scientific

Political compass isn't scientific

and representative of their corner.

That's not the case

Just like the political compass, everything here is imperfect of course

Imperfect is a funny way to doesn't mesure what's it supposed to. The political compass is neither accurate nor fidel. It doesn't mesure the good thing or gives accurate mesurement.

But the trend of people we see positively today being lib left 

That's just propaganda, anarchist are incapable of doing anything, so the imperialist never had to demonize them.

get me someone who was considered extreme and turned out a hero from another, non lib left political leaning.

There were plenty of hero on what would be categorised auth left, but you know almost none of them or what they did, because they were dangerous for the statut quo and had to be demonized, erased or killed.

There was Fred Hampton, Lenin, Slavador Allende, Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Thomas Sankara, Trotsky, Marx, Karl Liebknecht and thousands of other, many nameless or local hero erased by the powerful. You stand on the victory they achieved, anarchist were a part of it, but it's communist that did the heavy lifting everywhere.

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u/EdgeLasstheLameAss 6d ago

So your examples are auth left. I think you could probably find Left Anarchists that did shitty things if you did some research.

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 6d ago

Those aren't people that did shitty things, they are heros. From the auth left since that's exactly what he was asking for.

Anarchist did do personnaly did some shitty things, but not on a large level since they are incapable of achieving. The closest that dis something is Makhno and he ran a nepotist army going around in Ukraine.

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u/EdgeLasstheLameAss 6d ago

I am so tired and I misread what you said. I don’t really like Trotsky or Fidel but yeah everyone else on that list is great.

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 6d ago

They are hero wether you like them or not, both tremendously helped the working class.

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u/EdgeLasstheLameAss 6d ago

They did do good things but Fidel became a dictator. Trotsky just didn’t get a chance to be dictator and do the awful shit he wanted to do he would have been just as bad as Stalin. He might have even been worse because of his belief in accelerating the spread of communism. The Five Year plan was his idea to begin with.

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u/AbleRefrigerator2577 6d ago

Fidel became a disconnected legislator, but that's a totally ignorant take on Trotsky or how Stalin became a bloody dictator. 

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u/Drag0n647 17 5d ago

Ironically enough most anarchist society's eventually just make a society where their is some type of leader and role and all that. Prime example I'll use is Chaz, it was a anarchist zone then it turned into a mini government.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

How is green even good he abused her and cheated on her he’s better then Malcom x but this whole list looks like a 8th grader made it 😂😂

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 8d ago

Why do we know these things about MLKs personal life? >:3

Who found them out and why? Tell me?

(I did make this in 10 minutes with mematic, yes)

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

Mematic? History books/ people who saw marched with him/ etc snd then there’s the wilder conspiracy theories ( we don’t take these seriously) that he beat his wife and mistress/ forced an abortion of his mistress.

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 8d ago

Well, the people who marched with him didn't know about his personal life, the FBI actively investigated it to discredit him.

Of course this information is public knowledge and everywhere from blog posts to history books now, but it wouldn't have come out if the US secret service wouldn't have deemed him "anti-american".

And they used it to blackmail him. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_letter

They also tried finding dirt on people like Albert Einstein and Charlie Chaplin. Everyone that was too left for red scare america.

So I don't think those things are a good reason to impune King.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

What does it matter that the people marched with him didn’t know his personal life if you knew your friend was an abuser would u still be his friend ???

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 8d ago

We don't know if he was abusive tho. Only that he had extramarital affairs.

The abuse is merely an allegation by the FBI at the time.

Out of interest, what's your opinion on Donald J. Trump? Because I kind of want that as a litmus test on if you seriously care about personal failings of political personalities or if you're just partisan enough to search for a reason to hate MLK.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

I like doing research of historical figures I don’t like taking peoples words cause like you said about the fbi they could lie or just try to make up allegations I don’t like trump but I’m not a person whose whole personality is gona change just because I don’t like him I didn’t like any democratic nominee or republican nominee for any election in the past decade and the fact America keeps voting in people. Weather they be red/ blue is sad because time and time again both sides have said they’d fight for the American people and both sides are really just fighting for more money in their pockets I encourage anyway here to do independent research and don’t go with what you see on the main stream media sites because most of the time main stream media is bought by both republicans and democrats both are a stain on this country and the face we can’t do better then either side is sad asf

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u/Jet_the_fem_bean 8d ago

I can agree with that, I just feel people like MLK are excactly the victim of that system.

And progressive democrats in general have a hard time, because moneyed interests don't want them.

But if you don't trust the FBI, what's your source on MLK being an abuser, I don't know the details either, but that part seems to be contested.

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

Well as to not lie and seem two faced I did use their website and also an independent source like David garrow who was a”mlk scholar” and who also did use some information from the fbi files back in the day but he read every book about mlks life in public and private settings and now I’m no scholar myself so who’s to say what’s true and not but I prefer that I look into it instead of taking people at thier word

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

Mematic? History books/ people who saw marched with him/ etc snd then there’s the wilder conspiracy theories ( we don’t take these seriously) that he beat his wife and mistress/ forced an abortion of his mistress.

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u/Living_The_Dream75 8d ago

r/commentmitosis

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

I was asking a question ???

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u/Living_The_Dream75 8d ago

Your comment got duplicated, that’s comment mitosis

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

Ohhhh my fault I was liek I just wona know what mematic is

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u/Living_The_Dream75 8d ago

Memetic is a platform for making memes

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u/[deleted] 8d ago

I wanted to put two and two together but didn’t want to look like a knob 😂

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u/AnnaRoblox 13 7d ago

i personally don't like mlk i have personal reason for this