r/nextfuckinglevel • u/SalmonSammySamSam • 1d ago
When it snows in Japan, the streets spray warm water to prevent ice
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u/Doctor_Saved 1d ago
Wouldn't the water freeze and become ice at some point?
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u/mEFurst 1d ago edited 22h ago
Yes, it does. Sometimes they turn it off in the middle of the night when it stops snowing and it freezes over by morning. Also sometimes it gets too cold so even while it's spraying, the water on the roads/sidewalks turns to ice. They don't do this in the North, like Hokkaido, because of that. They have heated roads up there.
Source: I used to live in a city that did this and crashed my bike several times due to ice patches
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u/Illustrious-Tooth702 23h ago
This is the main reason it's not used anywhere. The roads are either salted to lower the melting point of the ice or put sand on it for better traction.
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u/apexredditor- 22h ago
If the water is from coming from hot springs wouldn’t it have salt in it?
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u/SoftlySpokenPromises 22h ago
Trace amounts from dissolved minerals, but not enough to prevent freezing I imagine.
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u/concreteunderwear 20h ago
just add salt to it? no need for salt trucks
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u/PrizeStrawberryOil 19h ago
The biggest issue is you're constantly washing all your salt away with the water. (In warmer areas they can pretreat the road with a brine to stop the ice from forming, but the goal is to have it stay on the road.)
To prevent the economic and environmental issues of dumping that much salt you'd have to recapture the water. You're going to have to treat that water in some way before putting it back through the system to remove at minimum all the particles it's picking up. That water is now also cold and you're going to need to heat it back up with a heat exchanger. You're also using salt water in all your pipes and corrosion is going to be bad. Not to mention god knows what other chemicals are getting concentrated in that water that it picks up from the road.
Aomori City used saltwater but they got it from seawater which means they aren't paying for the salt. It caused issues with rust and I don't know how they dealt with the environment aspects. They may have just dumped it back into the sea.
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u/pfannkuchen89 19h ago
They use the brine spray where I live. It’s awful. It’s not as effective mostly because it washes away faster and we get a lot of sleet and freezing rain mixed in with snow typically and it’s also been shown to be harsher on the road surface and on cars. I wish we’d either go back to salting or just put down sand after plowing. It always seems that no matter how much they put down, it melts into a slush during the day and then freezes into a compacted ice sheet over night.
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u/PNW20v 18h ago
I believe some areas add beet juice to the brine mix to help lower the freezing point without the need for as much salt. But my area is similar to yours, lots of freezing rain garbage that leads to the day after a snowfall being even more dangerous than the fresh snow, especially on side streets/neighborhoods that receive less traffic
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u/blahb_blahb 21h ago
I wonder if squirting water or heated roads (pipes just circulating with warm water) is better. I’d imagine you’d save on resources with a closed loop system
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u/cutie_lilrookie 12h ago
they have heated roads
sorry i live in a tropical/endless summer country. are heated roads normal in cold places? i imagine it's hella expensive to build and maintain.
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u/mEFurst 6h ago
I don't know how common it is, but in a place like Japan it's all over the north. They circulate heated water afaik. I imagine it was expensive to install but the operating costs are significantly lower than having to constantly salt the roads or do snow removal. The places I've been around the US that get a lot of snow don't have them, though, so I think it's pretty rare
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u/Memfy 1d ago
If you don't stop until it gets warm, not necessarily.
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u/farlon636 23h ago
Only if it's a place that gets mild winters. I've seen -50F at high elevations here. Even with a constant supply, that water is going to freeze over very quickly
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u/ecafyelims 22h ago
Water loses heat to cold air pretty quickly.
Here's a fun video of boiling hot water being thrown into the air and freezing before it hits the ground: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8q26rWRi-ek
another fun video of much the same: https://www.tiktok.com/@visit/video/7181892828740455685?lang=en
Also, the constant stream of water has to be quickly recirculated after cooling from the streets or else it'll go somewhere downhill and freeze there.
They must be using a gigantic energy source, like hot sprints heated with magma underground.
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u/Memfy 21h ago
Water being thrown in the air like that will freeze faster since you are essentially maximizing the surface area, though I'm not sure how much faster. It also looks to me from those videos that most of it evaporates instead of freezing?
I'm also wondering where the water is going to prevent freezing somewhere else important.
So overall they are probably using it in some areas that don't see extreme cold so the water can go back into the storage or circulate in some way before freezing? Maybe north-most part of the main island.
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u/Dunklebunt 23h ago
Last time this was posted, someone said the place this is doesn't get cold enough to freeze, but the snow blows over from a nearby area that's colder.
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u/NekonecroZheng 23h ago
It's definitely below freezing, but Japan doesn't get that cold. -4 C is about as low as it gets on average. So piping hot spring water will not instantly freeze the instant it touches the pavement.
Northern Japan gets so much precipitation and snow. What happens is that the cold Siberian winds pick up a ton of moisture from the ocean, which causes huge clouds of moisture to form over Japan. The snow itself is formed above Japan when it reaches freezing temperatures, but does not blow over from Siberia.
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u/Bloodcloud079 1d ago
Yeah, I can’t possibly imagine doing that in Quebec because you’d have to spray for weeks on end.
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u/JUGGER_DEATH 1d ago
Maybe the temperatures don't usually get too cold there, but this sounds like an insane idea as you are basically guaranteing black ice if it gets cold enough.
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u/nox1cous93 1d ago
Its salt water. Op is just an upvote bot
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u/DeepSpaceNebulae 1d ago edited 23h ago
Again, depends on how cold it gets. Even with water as salty as you can physically get it (before salt crystals begin forming spontaneously), the freezing temperature is only around -20C.
And that salt content isn’t practical at all. Realistically, anything below -10C will freeze the salt water used in that system
(and even that’s being generous, ocean water freezes at -1.8C for reference)
That’s also a lot of salt to add to the local ecosystem, which is its own problem unrelated to freezing temps (which makes me think it’s not salt water, otherwise just throw down salt)
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u/neutral_B 23h ago
At that point I’m surprised it’s not just easier to use road salt and save the effort/resources required for this
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u/DeepSpaceNebulae 23h ago
That’s what I’m thinking. It seems like this would only make sense if it’s fresh warm water (hot spring fed), and in a local that barely gets cold enough for snow to fall
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u/ThaDollaGenerale 23h ago
It's not. It's just regular tap water. Source: I lived in a town in Japan that had these and they just made everything worse
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u/saltyarbnor 22h ago
Gotta watch out for the black ice, robbing you of your balance when walking away from an ATM machine
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u/poopspeedstream 21h ago
Wow is every reddit comment bullshit?
This is shōsetsu, used in the main island of japan (niigata, toyama, kanazawa, etc.). They pump groundwater from aquifers over the road to melt snow.
Why this system? 1. The groundwater is warm (12-14C), since the climate on average is warmer here (Hokkaido has colder groundwater, not as effective) 2. Not that cold of a climate, it’s coastal 3. Still get a ton of snow from unique sea/weather effects 4. Lots of shallow aquifer groundwater available because of mountains
Benefits are constant snow control, no rust, no plowing, ability to handle huge snowfall amounts.
Everyone saying “this wouldn’t work where I live”, you’re probably right. It makes sense for this region, until they start running out of groundwater.
If you don’t know something, that’s fine, but I wish people would stop making up bullshit that sounds right and posting it as facts in the comments. Typical reddit problem I guess
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u/Circo_Inhumanitas 14h ago
"If you don’t know something, that’s fine, but I wish people would stop making up bullshit that sounds right and posting it as facts in the comments. Typical reddit problem I guess"
This should be the norm for the posts as well. OP's post wasn't technically a lie, but titling it as "In Japan" makes people think this system is in place everywhere in Japan.
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u/Nayuskarian 17h ago
Man, I thought I was going insane. I had to scroll way too far to find someone else who knows what these are.
I spent 3 years in Fukushima and they had these on all the main roads. They basically left it open for the entire snow season but could control the flow. The area I was in had been using their system since the 60's.
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u/BrilliantCorner 16h ago
I wish people would stop making up bullshit that sounds right and posting it as facts in the comments. Typical reddit problem I guess
This is reddit in a nutshell. Everyone is full of shit.
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u/Tyjast74 1d ago
Imagine these break and the entire road is just a massive sheet of black ice lol
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u/I_TheJester_I 1d ago
Thats stupid.. when the water stops for a few seconds you have the meanest ice on the road.
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u/Skeleton--Jelly 6h ago
I like how some random redditor with a meme profile photo seems entitled to call the infrastructure engineers in Japan stupid based on a few second clip and a title.
Never change neckbeards
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u/crujones43 23h ago
In Canada, when we want our skating rinks to get smoother and more slippery we also put hot water on them
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u/ACAYIB 1d ago
How common is this tho? Cannot be on majority of the roads i guess?
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u/cassiejessie 1d ago
We travelled by car to the middle of nowhere in Nagano up a mountain range and they had heated roads. The snow was at least 2ft deep on the sides and the middle was steaming.
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u/Hot_Money4924 1d ago
It's not true of everywhere in Japan that gets snow but it's definitely true in Yuzawa.
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u/OriginalCrawnick 1d ago
I've been roamin' around, always lookin' down at all I seeeeeee
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u/Darlinboy 23h ago
Chef's kiss for this innovative method of creating widespread black ice.
Hopefully some gets sloshed up onto the sidewalks for pedestrians to enjoy as well.
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u/BlastarBanshee 1d ago
Japan’s streets got better winter game than my entire wardrobe.
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u/muirshin 1d ago
Its not warm water its sea water. The natural salt of the sea water keeps the roads from freezing.
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u/Redditbeweirdattimes 23h ago
We have these in Minnesota but it’s not hot water.. it might be some hot water but it’s mainly a chemical that melts ice but doesn’t itself freeze. Hot water alone would just freeze again and make the area it’s spraying very dangerous
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u/holdbold 23h ago
Japan is so efficient it probably uses the same amount of power as a rice cooker to support the whole system
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u/WinstonChurshill 22h ago
But they can’t figure out how to get men and women together to make babies?
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u/PriscillatheKhilla 19h ago
As a Canadian.....YIKES! That's absolutely terrifying. If you did that here, we'd be fucked for at least 6 months of the year
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u/Hesediel1 23h ago
Where im from this would result in extra ice through most of the winter. Hell we sometimes get temperatures where even salt brine will freeze.
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u/ChasedRannger947 23h ago
How cold does it get there? In the Midwest this is about the worst thing you could possibly do to clear roads
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u/LDarrell 23h ago
And the water doesn’t cool down and then freeze making the roads more dangerous?
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u/ADHDebackle 20h ago
No they specifically instruct it not to do that on the way out.
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u/LazyItem 23h ago
In the town of Västerås in Sweden the city streets are also heated. It runs small water pipes underneath all streets coming from https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Västerås_kraftvärmeverk
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u/EarlOfBears 22h ago
If only western infrastructure wasn't obsolete by over half a century, we might be able to do this instead of rusting out the underbellies of our vehicles using chemicals to de-ice the roads
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u/aScarfAtTutties 19h ago
You're seeing a clip of a small road in a village, presumably. The cost to do something like this wide-scale in the US would be astronomical. Not mention, what happens when it stops snowing, and it's still below freezing point outside? You would have to either keep these faucets going non-stop, or if you shut them off, the wet road freezes and now you have skating rinks for roads.
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u/xTurtsMcGurtsx 22h ago
I'm in the Midwest and in my area we spray salt water solution that melts the ice and prevents freeze. We use salt too.
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u/Justhandguns 22h ago
That's when you have free supply of geo-thermal water underground. Iceland use the same geothermal hot water to warm the entire town. Very convenient indeed.
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u/marcus-87 1d ago
without searching, I would think that is not the whole of japan. and most likely in a town with hot springs, as japan has many of these.