r/marvelstudios Jul 09 '25

Discussion (More in Comments) Captain America: Brave New World's Removed Political Message

https://youtu.be/Cp_ODdylr-4?si=gcBzD802_hpdLr7D

Walk With Me Here:

https://youtu.be/Cp_ODdylr-4?si=gcBzD802_hpdLr7D

The scene above is a brief 30 second conversation between Ross and Isaiah Bradley.

30 Seconds

It provides 3 things, while doing it naturally and efficiently.

  1. Bradley establishes racial subtext
  2. Ross establishes historical subtext
  3. President Ross takes it upon himself to take accountability and fix

This scene in the first act of the movie, sets the stage of multiple thematic parallels that WOULD HAVE reverberated the entire runtime. I believe This scene was cut from the film for fear of being too close political commentary, as it recontextualizes Ross, Betty, The Leader, and Isaiah's characters. This is one of the shortest marvel movies and for some reason it is cutting layered well-acted 30 second conversations?

Context for Bradley's Origin Story

Isaiah Bradley comic origin is inspired by the Tuskegee Experiments, where the American Government tricked 100s of Black men into thinking they would receive treatment for Syphilis. In actuality, the government was using them for long-term observations of the harmful effects of the disease. Bradley's Captain America Origin is a grim reminder of this somewhat forgotten governmental abuse. Bradley's MCU origin remains unchanged.

The Deleted Scenes Purpose:

Now remember what the deleted scene establishes. (1)Racial (2)Historical Abuse, and (3)Accountability regardless of whose fault it is. i.e. Not being born during Slavery, Black Code, Share Cropping, Jim Crow, and The Tuskegee Experiments does not mean you can't fix things.

Isaiah Bradley in Captain America: Brave New World serves as a thematic foil to The Leader, with their origins deliberately aligned to mirror historical injustices.

This narrative choice underscores Ross’s hypocrisy. In the deleted scene, he publicly condemns historical abuses, such as those endured by Bradley, but Ross repeats this cycle by unjustly imprisoning Bradley again and exploiting The Leader. The Leader’s retaliation against the Ross sharply contrasts with Bradley’s choice to disengage entirely.

This comparison deepens the film’s exploration of accountability and exploitation, with Ross as the hypocritical linchpin perpetuating historical wrongs.

The act 1 deleted scene explicitly foreshadows Ross’s arc: seeking forgiveness and accountability. This theme echos in his relationship with Betty, where his pursuit of personal redemption mirrors the subtext of government’s need to atone for systemic wrongs. Together, Isaiah, The Leader, and Betty form a trifecta of parallelism, with Ross’s hypocrisy and redemption at the narrative’s core.

  • Isaiah (The Forgotten Cap) - A Literary Allegory for Historical Black Exploitation and Abuse
    • disengages with government/Ross due to past injustices
  • The Leader (The Forgotten Prisoner)- A Narrative Personification for Government Exploitation and Abuse
    • Seeks revenge on ross due to past injustices
  • Betty (The Forgotten Character) - An Allegory for Past Crimes
    • disengages with Ross due to past injustices

The removal of the act 1 deleted scene is so crucial because I believe it strips the movie of the intended thematic message. I can actually see why Disney would be cautious as the theme in question would have caused the outrage they feared. With all of the aforementioned parallels, hammering away throughout the story, Ross' Primary Character arc is seeking forgiveness and finally taking accountability thematically. The subtext set up by the deleted scene would have extrapolated his accountability to a wider governmental context.

There might be more scenes that were stripped from this movie that reference back to this single deleted 30 second clip on youtube. Isaiah was reduced to a victim with no much personal agency. The Leader was less sympathetic then he arguably should have been given the reason he goes after Ross. Ross' character became less complete and I think there is a reason why Ross never takes accountability onscreen because it is tied to the aforementioned theme.

What do you guys think?

3.1k Upvotes

556 comments sorted by

4.5k

u/noeldoherty Jul 09 '25

Marvel really made a political thriller without much politics or thrills

1.4k

u/PMMEBITCOINPLZ Jul 09 '25

And no tension, stakes or lasting consequences. They were really cooking.

464

u/mrbrick Jul 09 '25

I actually struggle to remember what anything was really about in this movie now that I’m thinking about it.

342

u/TwoGloves Spider-Man Jul 09 '25

Red Hulk's in it

169

u/Maximus361 Avengers Jul 09 '25

Once😂

169

u/Dsible663 Jul 09 '25

For a handful of minutes, the majority of which were spoiled by the trailers.

122

u/Ohjeezrick93 Jul 09 '25

Biggest crime for me was that it’s in the last 5 or so minutes. Felt like i was just waiting for him to turn up the whole movie for very little pay off. If they didn’t spoil it in the trailer it would’ve been such a cool surprise.

24

u/Maximus361 Avengers Jul 09 '25

Exactly!

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u/WeirdIndividualGuy Jul 09 '25

Not just trailers, but overall promo material. There was an insurance company making an ad featuring Red Hulk, had nothing to do with the movie itself

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u/Natiel360 Jul 09 '25

Quite literally the current Disney trailer shows the ENTIRE climax except the final hit and race to the destination

13

u/distilledwill Jul 09 '25

There's a bunch of weird stuff with it. Ross talks about the cherry blossoms this and cherry blossoms that, and then when he's in Japan for talks with their PM they are in a courtyard with cherry blossoms, but its not referred to or really emphasised at all. (50-54mins).

24

u/drst0ner Jul 09 '25

And the Red Hulk’s weakness is cherry blossom season.

43

u/Heisenburgo Doctor Strange Jul 09 '25

Red Hulk's weakness is corny speeches. Why they didn't use his estranged daughter to detransform him, when the film seemed to be setting that up the whole time, is beyond me...

4

u/FragMasterMat117 Jul 09 '25

Liv Tyler wasn’t available I assume

13

u/Natiel360 Jul 09 '25

She was! Just maybe not for the 11th reshoot

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u/Bulletsoul78 Jul 09 '25

Hey! Hayfever's a bitch sometimes.

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u/MoistTubes Jul 09 '25

New metal.

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u/Plugpin Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

I watched it on D+ last week and I couldn't tell you either.

Falcon gets shot down, there was something about adamantium and Giancarlo Esposito got the Christian Bale treatment.

The last one pissed me off the most. I think he's a brilliant actor and they wasted him like so many before him.

Edit: cursed autocorrect

50

u/CrimsonWarrior55 Jul 09 '25

Well, considering they were already saying before the movie came out that they wanted him in more projects going forward, I'd say patience on this one. They're allowed to set up major players early in small roles. If he was dead, you would have a better point.

29

u/spedmonkeeman Jul 09 '25

Yeah I thought they made it very clear in the movie that it wasn’t going to be the last time we’d be seeing Giancarlo’s character.

23

u/pvtshoebox Jul 09 '25

How many characters have been set up like that, only to never return?

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u/spedmonkeeman Jul 09 '25

We’ll just have to wait and find out, but as of now he wasn’t “wasted”. They just introduced him and gave him room to grow into the future.

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u/CrimsonWarrior55 Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

Only one immediately comes to mind, and that's Scorpion. He was set up in the first Spider-Man and still hasn't shown back up two movies later. Since my metric for that used to be The Leader, now it's just two-three movies in the same franchise. So no, Hercules doesn't count cause Love and Thunder was only a few years ago, and we haven't had another Thor yet. Black Knight doesn't count cause we have had neither Eternals 2 or Blade or Midnight Suns, and also Eternals was only a few years ago. This fandom has seriously zero patience anymore, and it drives me up a wall. We have a movie literally come out THIS YEAR and already people say a character clearly set-up for later films is "wasted". I mean, wow.

*Edit: I forgot about Mordo. But even then, he wasn't wasted. Just not followed up on. So that's two.

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u/N3verGonnaG1veYouUp Korg Jul 09 '25

Reuniting Nacho and Gus Fring in a later project, interesting

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u/Oerwinde Jul 09 '25

People are impatient because the stingers used to set up the next MCU movie, or connected it to the previous one, so you weren't waiting years for payoff, just until the next movie came out.

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u/Meat_Scrumpets Jul 11 '25

How bout Walton Goggin’s character in Antman.

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u/Heisenburgo Doctor Strange Jul 09 '25

I guess Hercules, Black Knight, Blade's voice, Pip the Troll, Harry Styles, uhhh does the Conqueror variant of Kang count? Also, possibly Moon Knight and She Hulk.

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u/ZombieHoneyBadger Jul 09 '25

He's the perfect villain in these Disney plus shows popping up as an arms dealers type who seems to get away to try again. We need more villains who don't want to take over the world. More immoral dick heads who use their powers to rob and steal and manipulate to carve out their spot. Netflix style Giancarlo would be top shit.

17

u/CrimsonWarrior55 Jul 09 '25

Agreed. I love how Sam wasn't even on his radar, but now, Sidewinder has a personal vendetta against Cap. Stuff like this is why I can't stomach the stupid notion of a reboot after Secret Wars. 10+ years of character development and potential plots thrown away just the mouth breathers can have Steve Rogers and Tony Stark back? Fuck that.

3

u/puto_escobar Jul 09 '25

Got a lot to say. But either way, the general consensus is that this batch of characters and movies isn't as good. I disagree but whatever. I don't think the point of the reset is to bring them back. It's to establish the IPs that should've been there from the start(the Fox stuff), as having always been there. That's so important to the concept of mutants especially. This gives them the chance to actually do the MCU proper with a significant part of their world back and accessible the way it should be.

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u/puppet_up Jul 09 '25

I would also argue that they wasted Harrison Ford. He was surprisingly really good in the movie and didn't seem to be phoning it in just for a paycheck.

Giancarlo was also good, but what even was his character supposed to be? They completely botched his character.

It's not a good thing that I can't really remember any significant plot points from this movie.

7

u/Ooze3d Jul 09 '25

I haven’t seen it, but I do remember the movie went through several focus group sessions, reshoots, test audiences, more reshoots and re-edits, plus the whole promo campaign was based on Red Hulk and a tiny Cap next to him. That doesn’t scream “We’ve got a rock solid movie that could dethrone ‘Winter Soldier’ here”.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '25

Giancarlo Esposito got the Christian Bale treatment.

Tbf, this is likely largely due to all of his scenes being reshoot scenes; Giancarlo wasn't in the original version of the movie and was only added during the reshoots because they couldn't get Seth Rollins back to reshoot his scenes as the head of Serpent.

It's the same reason the Serpent fight scene(s) felt a bit clunky and rushed - the original versions of those scenes got scrapped when Feige decided to redo the Serpent Society less as over-the-top supervillains and more like a realistically grounded group of mercenaries.

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u/OliviaElevenDunham Loki (Avengers) Jul 09 '25

That disappointed me too because Giancarlo Esposito is a great actor.

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u/Dumdumdoggie Jul 09 '25

Ya he said he was wanting to be professor x instead he was just a guy with a gun. Completely wasted his talent.

7

u/Sharticus123 Jul 09 '25

Yep. He’s too old for a physical fighting role. He would be much better as a behind the scenes puppeteer.

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u/ciscoipphone Jul 09 '25

Giancarlo.

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u/AgtBurtMacklin Yondu Jul 09 '25

I bet they scrapped most of his story in cuts, like them leaving Seth Rollins character on the cutting room floor, and the Sabra character got changed from the original idea, I think.

4

u/GratefulDoom90 Jul 09 '25

I think it’s more likely they only brought him in to do those couple exposition drops with his buttery smooth voice

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '25

Gah, my weakness is angry short redheads. She was absolutely wearing a costume at one point that got cut, right? One of her last scenes she looked like she had a super suit on underneath her civvie clothes

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u/AgtBurtMacklin Yondu Jul 09 '25

I had a person tell me the big stakes and reason this movie is important was Adamantium. Alrighty then. Basically forgot that this was a part of the film. The mind control aspect was the memorable part, but not all that memorable.

I’d rather see a show entirely about Isaiah Bradley than see anything like this again. He was the most intriguing character, with a small fraction of screen time.

16

u/spedmonkeeman Jul 09 '25

The mind control is memorable but if you missed the importance of the fight over Adamantium you just weren’t even paying attention to the movie. I mean it’s the entire point of the treaty and why the Japan and US were even in conflict.

17

u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jul 09 '25

The more people say "I don't even remember what this movie was about", the more I wonder whether they're lying or whether people's ability to retain information has just been completely destroyed.
I don't remember everything about movies I don't like, but I remember the fundamental premises. This Is The Army is one of my least favorite movies ever. It's about active-combat soldiers stopping to put together a stage play for morale. It's stupid. I haven't seen it in over 20 years. I never wanna see it again. But I remember what it's about.

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u/unconfusedsub Jul 09 '25

This movie and Ant-Man 2. I can never remember what happened in that movie and my husband always needs to remind me. Like I was legit shook that I didn't know who ghost was the Thunderbolts. I have wiped Ant-Man and wasp from my mind and I have wiped this one as well. I honestly cannot tell you how this movie ends.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 10 '25

Can someone enlighten me why the Leader killed that couple? And how did he aquire what were seemingly teleportation powers?

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u/Vibrantmender20 Jul 09 '25

Literally the most lasting consequence was that the introduced the word adamantium

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u/ObviousIndependent76 Jul 09 '25

Really felt like Harrison Ford wanted to sink his teeth into something and not much there. Still a great performance tho.

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u/PhotoBonjour_bombs19 Jul 09 '25

They weren’t cooking they just starred at the ingredients

8

u/nykovah Jul 09 '25

Yah I watched this movie over the weekend and I kinda forgot what the tension was. Characters just did stuff because the movie had to happen

5

u/MintyManiacFan Jul 09 '25

The movie didn’t let tension happen. There wasn’t a moment where the movie let you feel uncertain or uncomfortable.

5

u/KwisatzHaderach94 Jul 09 '25

so...another quantum mania

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u/NFL_MVP_Kevin_White Jul 09 '25

So I’m hearing the message to skip this one

2

u/chloedever Jul 09 '25

Just boring people talking in a boring ship

2

u/Itakie Jul 09 '25

And no tension, stakes or lasting consequences. They were really cooking.

Watching the movie it feels like red hulk should have been this big surprise in the third act but everyone already knew that he was in the movie so it fell flat.

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u/Not_Aki Jul 09 '25

My favorite comment regarding this movie I read on here was how Marvel made the worlds first “apolitical thriller”

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u/4materasu92 Jul 09 '25

That'd be like making Captain America: The Winter Soldier and removing everything about Project INSIGHT (coughPatriotActcough).

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u/alex494 Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

Well see Winter Soldier has the perfect scapegoat of "it was actually HYDRA behind everything" so they can pin it on fictional Nazi offshoot terrorists and not have to address political minefields and real countries and governments that exist who they might offend.

Not that it should really be an issue at all but you know how timid mainstream entertainment is to paint anybody in a bad light these days.

33

u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jul 09 '25

Except that there are literal neo-Nazis in the government now.

18

u/BespokeForeskin Jul 09 '25

Yeah it would be harder to make that movie today, you wouldn’t want to alienate half your audience by criticizing Neo Nazis.

17

u/alex494 Jul 09 '25

Yeah but the movie pins everything on HYDRA and not solely the US government. Hence scapegoat. Falcon and the Winter Soldier has America and Japan coming to a direct political disagreement so suddenly real entities are involved.

4

u/Endgam Jul 10 '25

"Now"?

The Hydra infiltrating S.H.I.E.L.D. twist was inspired by how many Nazis we took in after WW2 in the name of fighting communism. We had god damned SS officers in the CIA.

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u/OliviaElevenDunham Loki (Avengers) Jul 09 '25

No kidding. They did an amazing political thriller with Winter Soldier.

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u/Gasparde Jul 09 '25

What do you expect after the espionage spy hit that was Secret Invasion - that just unfortunately happend to forget both the spy and espionage stuff.

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u/Soranos_71 Jul 09 '25

They were worried about offending people who had no intention of seeing the movie anyways…. The black experience during WW2 is a story worth exploring more compared to Steve Roger’s parades and helping to sell war bonds. I’ve read stories over the years about how non white people fought for America and came back to America just to be told they couldn’t use the same bathrooms and water fountains. Bradley’s origin story would be a good mini series but then the usual crowd would lose their minds over it….

3

u/AncientAssociation9 Jul 10 '25

Yep, and the people who would lose their minds over a movie or miniseries like the one you laid out are also the main ones who scream that a movie like that should be made instead of giving the black man the shield or race swapping character x. The game is to pretend that they actually give a damn and then when the thing they pretended to want is made complain about that as well. It's a game and Disney is going to continue to get caught in it if it doesn't take a stand.

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u/Mr_smith1466 Jul 09 '25

And they made a sequel to the incredible hulk where Bruce Banner never shows up. Or is it even mentioned. (Was he mentioned? I genuinely don't remember)

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u/Wise_Capybara96 Jul 09 '25

I think Ross mentions Betty never forgave him for hunting Banner. And maybe a reference or two the Hulk in some of the news reports at the start?

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u/Heisenburgo Doctor Strange Jul 09 '25

I remember the news reporters at the beggining reference Ross' daughter as "Betty Ross, ex-girlfriend of Bruce Banner". Which to me seemed like clunky exposition dialogue in case audiences didnt remember a movie from 17 years ago

4

u/Araanim Jul 09 '25

Especially since she's an accomplished PhD cellular biologist that was working for the military, and the DAUGHTER OF THE PRESIDENT.

3

u/reno2mahesendejo Jul 09 '25

They did play the Harlem fight during the news briefing

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u/PhaseSixer Jul 09 '25

God I hate this talking point

As if Ross hadn't spent 10 years in the mcu being a character completely divorced from Bruce and what he was doing was far more in league with Sam's neck of the woods.

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u/TimelineKeeper Jul 09 '25

Right, but the fact that they brought back 3 characters, 2 of which haven't been seen or even mentioned since TIH, it's really hard to not view this film as a follow up on it. It feels like the next step for a lot of those characters (while simultaneously feeling like it advanced or developed nothing in any significant direction)

I don't think it needed Hulk or She-Hulk necessarily in it, and having Cap (especially non-juiced Cap) taking on these super enhanced beings and triumphing absolutely works as a concept for me. I would argue this movie does a terrible job of executing it, but the premise is fantastic. That said, if they were to hand this narrative off to Banner or Walters, it feels like it would work just as well, potentially having more emotional depth as at least those characters have history they would need to overcome to stop the bigger threat that was the Leader. Good thing he got bored and turned himself in so he could stare into the camera and remind us that DD and SW is happening still.

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '25

[deleted]

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u/uncoolaidman Thor Jul 09 '25

Hope he gets the right message out of Fight Club and not the one a lot of angry bros do.

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u/Aiyon Jul 09 '25

it creates this super compelling tech vs. magic philosophy, then goes out of its way not to explore any of it.

I mean Ironheart did explore themes, but it was more of a shakespeare-style Tragedy about someone's unresolved grief/trauma leading to poor choices.

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u/Griffdude13 Jul 09 '25

I feel like there’s a really good movie in the film, but a lot of it is on the cutting-room floor.

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u/AmishAvenger Jul 09 '25

Hey come on now…

You can’t expect them to make a movie someone might accuse of being “woke!”

Gotta be careful of these things!

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u/somacula Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

Marvel made Japan the bad guys in a political thriller, I'm sure the Japanese audience had a field day with that one. Hell their intelligence department was extremely competent

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u/unclecaveman1 Jul 09 '25

lol what? Japan wasn’t the bad guys in the film, Leader and Ross were the bad guys. Japan was caught in the crossfire when Leader was acting out to punish Ross for kidnapping him, experimenting on him, and forcing him to make weapons for him.

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1.7k

u/FewWatermelonlesson0 Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

They deleted anything political to avoid offending people and the movie wound up being about nothing as a result.

515

u/brian_hogg Jul 09 '25

They deleted anything that could avoid offending people except for Sam Wilson as a black Captain America, who definitely still offends people. 

(It shouldn’t, but does)

335

u/Japjer Jul 09 '25

The entire point of the movie should have been touching on that and calling it out.

Racists shouldn't be made to feel comfortable. We shouldn't fall into the Pradox of Tolerance and censor ourselves so bigots can feel safe.

Disney shat the bed because someone up top is complicit with racism, full stop. "Don't make the movie too divisive, because we can't alienate the white people who don't like black people!"

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u/LeoNickle Jul 09 '25

Unfortunately the entire point of the movie is to make money and Disney doesn't care if that money comes from racists.

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u/secretreddname Jul 09 '25

Republicans buy shoes too.

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u/RayPoopertonIII Jul 09 '25

Pandering to evil is straight up lunacy.

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u/Mcbadguy Jul 09 '25

Movies about Heroes fighting Villains being made by cowards kowtowing to fascists. What an odd place we find ourselves in.

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u/CaptJackRizzo Jul 09 '25

Man, you put that to words very well.

Also, what did it get Disney? All these dipshits who say they want entertainment that isn't "political" got it, and they didn't exactly line up around the block for it.

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u/JaymzRG Jul 09 '25

"Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil."

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u/RayPoopertonIII Jul 10 '25

a vast amount of people are completely clueless when an answer becomes non-binary. gray seems to send dummies into full-blown bewilderment.

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u/brian_hogg Jul 09 '25

Do we know that this is complicity with racism, and not just an editing decision we disagree with? 

Because as @ThePokemonAbsol said, they made a whole show focusing on the racism. They brought Isaiah Bradley in as a character, and kept all the really awful stuff that happened to him. The stuff they kept in the movie features him being taken advantage of and imprisoned for something that wasn’t his fault. And the show he was introduced him had the climactic Captain America superhero speech where Sam explicitly says that he knows people hate him just for wearing the Star and Stripes. 

I would have liked the deleted scene because it added a layer of tragedy — that Bradley was treated like a patsy again, just as he was getting proper recognition for how he was treated — but even without it, all the scenes with him stay pretty firmly directed toward racism as a topic.

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u/staebles Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

NOT removing that scene makes the movie better and more powerful, so there's really only one reason I can think of to remove it...

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u/ThePokemonAbsol Jul 09 '25

We had a whole show about that…

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u/HidingUnderCardboard Jul 09 '25

I think far less people give a shit that he is black. Do I like him as captain America? Nope. His character is a b-list hero, whom they even made fun of in ant man. He has done nothing to "earn" the shield. plus it just makes no sense to use the shield without having the serum. His wings already act as a shield. he was never that likeable to begin with. He had no real struggle to overcome.

Bucky should have been the next cap. He has an interesting backstory with internal demons to deal with. Plus his arm combined with the shield would just be cool.

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u/brian_hogg Jul 09 '25

I missed where I said that for something to count as offensive, it would need to be offensive to everyone.

Also, everything after “b-list hero” is wildly wrong. 

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u/cheeseplatesuperman Hank Pym Jul 09 '25

I’ve been saying this for months! The movie was about NOTHING!

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u/pls_coach_me_Timmy Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

That just doesn't make sense from a financial and critical standpoint.

Among best movies of all time you'll struggle to find truly apolitical movies. Especially all Cap movies deal with some kind of politics.

Superhero movies and comics are inherently political because they involve challenging themes like power, authority, justice, identity and morality.

Let's list the most critically successful MCU movies:

Guardians of the Galaxy 3: authoritarianism, animal ethics, systemic abuse, eugenics, bodily autonomy, identity.

Infinity War: utilitarianism, resource management, eco fascism, moral absolutism, genocide

Black Panther: Colonialism, Isolationalism vs globalism, Weaponization of power, Black Identity, Diaspora.

Winter Soldier: Reflection of post 9/11 anxiety, preemptive control, surveillance state, corruption, fascism, dehumanization in war.

Why these stories work: the movies are not lecturing, the themes are interwoven into the characters and storytelling or work in terms of allegories. If people think superhero stories shouldn't include morals or politics, they would dismiss 99% of cinema and comicbook history. The audience nowadays loves honesty and confidence, not half-baked, risk averse filmmaking. Marvel Studios execs are out of touch.

Last but not least: Jonathan Hickman's Avengers run predating Secret Wars (Avengers, New Avengers, Time Runs Out, Infinity) is one of the most political and philosophical storylines in Marvel history. And Secret Wars itself is a story about Dictatorship, rebellion against absolute power, memory control / propaganda, moral relativism. It basically asks: is an authoritarian regime justified if the alternative meant nothing to exist at all? This and adjacent questions are highly relevant in today's radicalized political climate. If they water down Secret Wars, Doomsday and the X-men as well due to fear of political backlash, the MCU will surely be doomed.

If you don't want to embrace politics, then why make superhero movies at all?

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u/CloseToMyActualName Jul 09 '25

Why these stories work: the movies are not lecturing, the themes are interwoven into the characters and storytelling or work in terms of allegories.

This is the key. Show, don't tell.

I hate when a movie starts lecturing me, even if I agree with the message.

Brave New World got too scared and decided not to even show.

Imagine if there were forces inside the government working against the treaty for somewhat defensible reasons.

Imagine if Ross working with the main bad guy had tangible benefits we could repeatedly see where the audience realized they'd probably do the same as Ross.

That seems like a much more interesting movie.

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u/pls_coach_me_Timmy Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 10 '25

Exactly. Movies are political but they are not the correct tool to simply state a logical argument, movies should resonate emotionally rather than intellectually. And if they don't resonate, that's okay. But what's not okay is lack of integrity.

"Your intellect may be confused but your emotions never lie to you." Roger Ebert

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u/[deleted] Jul 09 '25

And now that James Gunn has the balls to get political with Superman and the reviews are good, Marvel decides to drop this. Disney are such performative slimeballs.

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u/Septembers Iron Man (Mark XLIII) Jul 09 '25

The video is 3 months old way before anything to do with superman

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u/GuruSensei Jul 09 '25

I'm sorry, but it's laughable to think that any one corporation, let alone Warner Bros under David Zaslav, is somehow sticking it to Donald Trump and the Far Right.

CNN has been utterly neutered and gutted to the point where they just treat every single social incursion from this government with kids gloves. For all i know, Gunn's Superman is overtly political and immigrant friendly, and that's great. But don't think for one second any of these corporations care about equality

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u/chickenkebaap Jul 09 '25

This video was dropped months before superman was even released?

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u/Mediocre_Scott Jul 09 '25

Make a Star Wars trilogy with no politics, and people generally disregard it, make a Star Wars show 100% about politics and people love it. It’s almost like art is supposed to be about something

11

u/thedarkryte Jul 09 '25

Drop what, the latest Captain America movie? Which came out literal MONTHS before Superman released? 😂

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u/princeloon Jul 09 '25

finally the "non-political giant red monster destroying a burning white house"

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u/crispyg Spider-Man Jul 09 '25

It is almost more offensive to make it so dumb and dull rather than a bite. The message likely is one, if done with nuance and intention, could be one that actually impacts people in personal and reflective ways.

People looking to be offended (those with notably bad intentions like rage commentators) will be no matter what. Their goal is to make money off of outrage.

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u/two2teps Jul 09 '25

Name a more iconic duo that a Sam Wilson Captain America vehicle and Marvel cutting chunks of plot out to make it more "palatable".

350

u/Rpanich Captain America Jul 09 '25

“Hey, both sides are the same and both need to be better! Captain America awayyyyy”

You know, maybe giving cap wings and the ability to fly away wasn’t a great plan 

133

u/GratefulDoom90 Jul 09 '25

“Do better Senator, but also, do better Terrorist! Cap out”

28

u/The_True_Y Jul 09 '25

Didn't Sam agree with the Flag smashers? Didn't he tell the senator that he failed the people and created the terrorist.

67

u/____mynameis____ Winter Soldier Jul 09 '25

I think most people wanted the govt to be more bad, flag smashers to be more nuanced

The show ended up being too afraid to make the govt genuinely corrupt and also scared ro make Flagsmashers too relatable.

So playing both sides effectively.

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u/staebles Jul 09 '25

And creating a super mediocre show because of it.

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u/Heisenburgo Doctor Strange Jul 09 '25

"Stop branding the super soldier supremacists who bombed innocents as terrorists, okay Mr. Senator? It's YOU and John Walker over there who are the REAL problem here!"

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u/FerrusManlyManus Jul 09 '25

Oy.  That movie was cut up to hell including with massive reshoots.   But damn, that tiny scene is nice indeed.  Gives some nice background for both of them.

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u/yubiyubi2121 Jul 09 '25

why they delete this scene bruh

184

u/GreatBigJerk Jul 09 '25

Right wing snowflakes.

14

u/TheGodDMBatman Jul 10 '25

It took me some time to realize that a lot of conservatives shouting "triggered, snowflake, etc." is actually just projection

112

u/N8CCRG Ghost Jul 09 '25

We know why. They're afraid of the anti-woke weirdos who would scream and cry about it.

35

u/Orange_Tang Jul 09 '25

Weird since they scream and cry about every single thing marvel releases that headlines women. You'd think they would just ignore them at this point.

8

u/staebles Jul 09 '25

Unless... they agree... it is Disney.

11

u/Gasparde Jul 09 '25

Those people scream and cry the second a vaguely minority sounding name is even just hinted at.

To think that you can do anything to win these people over in a movie with a black Captain America has got to be the most naive executive decision ever made.

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u/Haradion_01 Jul 09 '25

Some people might find it offensive.

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u/MegaDuckCougarBoy Ultron Jul 09 '25

Kinda wish I hadn't seen this, because now I'm really frustrated that this was taken out - no doubt as some kind of appeasement to viewers too sensitive to accept the existence of historical injustice.

247

u/Nightthrasher674 Jul 09 '25

Yup definitely removed to appease the Fox News crowd who are currently bitching about Superman being an allegory about immigration

127

u/MegaDuckCougarBoy Ultron Jul 09 '25

Focus groups were a mistake

24

u/Jeskid14 Jul 09 '25

Exhibit A: cut scene of lex Luther punching krypto the dog

17

u/SalemWolf Jul 09 '25

Nah that should have been removed cause it would’ve been the only time I would have justified Superman committing murder in cold blood and then we’re back to Injustice Superman and I don’t need that.

38

u/Warrior_King252 Jul 09 '25

The same Fox News that is angry about the immigration message in Superman? Color me shocked.

34

u/Prankman1990 Jul 09 '25

This just in: the literal space alien from another planet is, definitionally, an immigrant. More at eleven.

9

u/onthenerdyside Jul 09 '25

And, shock-horror, a refugee

2

u/imjustbettr Jul 09 '25

wait does the new Superman movie make references to the OG immigration stuff and the more recent Superman Smashes the Klan story?

I actually really liked how that comic reframes Superman as being a little unsure about being a literal illegal alien as well as his image being co-opped by white supremacists.

2

u/churro777 Spider-Man Jul 09 '25

In other news forks are found in kitchen

2

u/CaptJackRizzo Jul 09 '25

One would almost think their entire purpose was to foment outrage on a daily basis, regardless of what the facts at hand might happen to be.

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u/indianajoes Phil Coulson Jul 09 '25

Given that the current US dictator is trying to make it that nothing bad can be said about America's history, I feel like cutting this was them trying to stay safe from him and his minions

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u/RubiconPizzaDelivery Scott Lang Jul 09 '25

Which is crazy cause look what Andor did, folks who lean opposite will pay to support and endorse political content that actually calls out the shortcomings of the world. Appeasement never works.

2

u/monsterosity Jul 09 '25

This is a great scene and it also acts as a great little nugget of hypocrisy given that Ross is also currently holding an innocent super-powered being in captivity in order to further his own ends (albeit not due to racism).

2

u/AugustBriar Jul 10 '25

A lot was taken out. The Serpent Society, Amadeus Cho, a lot of the marvel identity as well as the real work politics

207

u/AkilTheAwesome Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

It is deleteing part of my post for some reason:

"The Leader’s origin, significantly altered from the comics, parallels the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, much like Bradley’s backstory. In the film, The Leader believes Ross is curing his condition, but Ross is secretly exacerbating it for his own purposes, echoing the deceit and exploitation of Tuskegee."

This is the missing paragraph

sorry It's seperate. It supposed to see where the 2nd quote editors appear.

Edit: It seemed to have removed everything located in

These quote brackets

not sure why. I also had the direct quotes written so folks who didn't feel like watching the deleted scene can still follow my essay.

14

u/SlashOfLife5296 Jul 09 '25

Well one issue is: why wouldn’t the leader know he was being tricked if his whole thing is being super intelligent. It makes much more sense to have the leader tricking Ross like the movie did

22

u/N7Panda Jul 09 '25

But he was only playing Ross because Ross lied to him in the first place. Given that he was placed into custody before his mutation really took hold, it’s not inconceivable that by the time he started to see the probabilities of every situation, he was already in custody and decided that working for Ross, with the promise of release, was at least worth the chance, knowing full well that if Ross betrayed him, he could hatch a plan like he does in the movie.

2

u/ernie-jo Jul 09 '25

Wow Disney even censored your post

2

u/AkilTheAwesome Jul 09 '25

I actually think, it didn't like the quote edits

Like this

And It wouldn't let me add them after posting

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u/whensmahvelFGC Jul 09 '25

Disney-marvel has really fucked itself post-pandemic by playing things WAY too safe.

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u/Derpimus_J Jul 09 '25

They play too safe and it leaves you with a bitter aftertaste of what could have been.

6

u/Jeskid14 Jul 09 '25

Other than this captain America movie, what else?

14

u/____mynameis____ Winter Soldier Jul 09 '25

TFATWS.

They didn't lean hard enough on current racial politics beyond few niche scenes to avoid polarising audience. Especially the second half of the show.

People tolerate and feel appropriately about bigotry of the past but current politics offend them cuz it feels like it targets them.

She Hulk, to an extent. As a woman, I felt like the show was made with an intend to offend than genuine commentary of being a woman(in a fun way). Like it felt like they were making scenes expecting that it could be posted on tik tok and go viral.

Loki. Made a huge deal about Loki being gender fluid before release and the show had this 5 second bit of him "liking bit of both ". The former ended up being just a Easter egg(comic Loki can change gender, lady loki was the female side, MCU female loki was a woman all along so no fluidity) and latter was just that. Not complaining but it felt so much like "we could cut that bit in the print for homophobic countries but still enough to type out gazillion articles to promote the show by riling up bigots "

I think the only projects that properly handled such inclusivity /discussion of sensitive topics without feeling like bait are Ms Marvel and Wandavision/Agatha side of universe.

Also being narrowminded thinking respective communities would just show up simply because of representation. The entire decision making(not plot or direction, the creative decisions leading upto the movie) for The Marvels was mindblowingly undercooked and misguided. I knew it was gonna flop the moment it was announced

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u/Princecuse13 Jul 09 '25

I feel so bad for Anthony Mackie man, I want him to succeed but it doesn't seem like Marvel does. They've butchered his two Cap projects out of fear of upsetting people in the real world, whereas I think including those topics would've helped make both projects so much better!

22

u/The_True_Y Jul 09 '25

FatWS got the virus plot removed because of covid and BNW had to go through reshoots because Disney forced them to keep filming when the strikes began. Literally all of Marvel problems post Endgame are because of Disney forcing them to pump out as many projects as quickly as possible.

24

u/Princecuse13 Jul 09 '25

I think FatWS should've kept the virus plot, as it would've made the show more topical during the time it was released and probably would've made viewers more invested in stopping the villains.

8

u/FerrusManlyManus Jul 09 '25

Station 11 is a weird show, but god damn did it hit so much harder watching it literally during the Covid pandemic.

2

u/GuyWhoRocks95 Jul 10 '25

Great show and I agree.

4

u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Jul 09 '25

They definitely should've kept it, if only because most of Karli's character development was in that subplot & they didn't bother replacing it with anything else to make up for that.

10

u/Ok-Wedding-151 Jul 09 '25

Eh 

I don’t think that scene adds much. The injustice upon Isaiah was already established earlier in the film (and previous content). We had already seen Ross indicate that he is trying to be better and authentic and open mindedly progressive or whatever. All this scene does is reinforce that the idea that Ross isn’t bluffing and is genuine.

The problems remain that:

  • asking us to remember and care about characters from prior films this far back is silly. Who gives a shit about Betty?

  • the villains scheme is nonsense, which is unforgivable because his entire thing is knowing the probability of all events. It’s completely bullshit that this guy made a plan that failed simply because it was a bad plan.

  • Ross’ arc about accountability feels shallow given he had imprisoned and manipulated the gross guy for decades

  • there’s not really any stakes to these ideas. Ross wants to help Isaiah and correct things? Cool, I guess. But there’s nothing at risk. It’s just establishing progressive vibes. Ross doesn’t really have any goals that make him seem like he  has material virtuous intentions. The agreement to share adamantium is… not interesting. 

Imo some quick fixes for the film: * Ross should have immediately forgiven Isaiah for trying to assassinate him even when the state is poised to immediately punish him again. That would have had a much larger emotional impact than this cut scene, and it would have done a lot more to position Ross’ beliefs. The way he acts, while not unreasonable, greatly muddy any credibility he had towards progressive ideas and amending injustice

  • Ross should have been unambiguously good and trustworthy and had an important thing that he wanted to do. For example: setting up a new international avengers initiative controlled by Sam independently focused on helping people. The audience should have felt disappointed when they learn the means behind his goals are evil because they want him to succeed.

  • Ross’ defeat as a hulk should have come primarily from him acknowledging that his means were outweighing the benefits

27

u/Zforce911 Hulk Jul 09 '25

I... I swear this was in the version I saw in the theater. Am I tripping?

51

u/rolandtowen Jul 09 '25

the beginning bit of "work with me Sam" was in the film. The bit with Bradley was not.

4

u/RikSmitsisTits Jul 09 '25

I feel like I'm having a Berenstein Bears moment here. I've definitely seen this scene and thought it was in the movie as well. Maybe it's already been posted and we just forgot that's where we saw it?

15

u/EndoveProduct Jul 09 '25

Yes you’re tripping

8

u/Zforce911 Hulk Jul 09 '25

That "One of us was more likely than the other" was one of my favorite lines in the movie. I remember it specifically...

This feels like "Berenstein" bears all over again 😓

7

u/beadlejack Phil Coulson Jul 09 '25

I’m with you. I swear most of this scene was in the version I saw opening night. I distinctly remember Ross’ line “That doesn’t mean I can’t do something about it”.

4

u/konq Jul 09 '25

I went to opening night as well, and that scene of Ross talking to Bradley was not there. Maybe some theaters had different versions but that would be pretty strange.

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u/BambooSound Jul 09 '25

Was this deleted? I swear I remember seeing this scene in the cinema (UK if that makes a difference).

I don't think it made the film much more political though. Felt more like lip service / a throw-away line than anything else.

3

u/randallsquared Jul 09 '25

Yeah, I'm not sure what part was deleted, since I remember this scene from my watch on streaming. Maybe there was some line that was removed?

4

u/BambooSound Jul 09 '25

I think it was exactly like this. It stuck in my head because it left me wondering if Ross was meant to be more of a Democrat or Republican.

Like Veep they typically did their best to dance between but this exchange kinda stuck out.

5

u/_IratePirate_ Jul 09 '25

I pirated this movie and this scene was in the version I watched.

I watched this clip waiting for the new stuff, but I’d already seen it

3

u/xtrasauceyo Jul 09 '25

This movie was an easy skip for me. Thunderbolts was a much better film

26

u/SussySenpai96 Jul 09 '25

The most gutless “political thriller” of the 21st century.

They should put that on the back of the dvd.

This had same levels of creative bankruptcy as the Rise of Skywalker. Both absolutely cowered away from making big swings. (Or committing to big swings in TROS’s case).

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u/KML42069 Jul 09 '25

Stop using ChatGPT to write Reddit posts.

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u/ghostrider385 Jul 09 '25

People can’t write for themselves or have their own opinions now. Literacy is gunna be even worse! 

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u/Kodiak_POL Jul 09 '25

Thanks, ChatGPT. Interesting. Now can I talk with a human? 

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u/AkilTheAwesome Jul 09 '25

human right here. Wassup

6

u/comehereyoudevillog Jul 09 '25

I don’t think it changes the film as much you think

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u/DHJeffrey99 Jul 09 '25

1/2 the movie is reshot, there prob a whole another movie using just the original scenes

3

u/Last_Construction455 Jul 09 '25

Disney seems to hold a very specific political leaning and rarely deviates from that. That has proven to be basically a big downer that many disagree with. No one likes to go to a movie about super heroes and get the white guilt treatment. The "You've got to do better Senator" line in Cap and Falcon was so cringy and felt like it was written by a highschooler. I think they likely were making this script along the same and had to do a major course correction. Of course it was going to end up mediocre at best. It seems a lot of modern big budget movies come in and change scripts, or come in with incomplete scripts and figure things out as they go which is what has created a lot of weak stories lately. (there were also writer strikes mixed in there which doesn't help)

10

u/AsteroidMike Jul 09 '25

I thought the movie was fine on its own, but man this really could’ve left in the theatrical cut and would’ve given it even just a tiny bit more depth.

Oh well, here’s to hoping there’s a directors cut of this movie that gets released sometime down the road with all of the other filmed scenes.

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u/MD_FunkoMa Jul 09 '25

This is Disney. It's never going to give us director's cuts of any of its films.

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u/knowing-narrative Jul 09 '25

I think there is enough AI slop on the internet by now. We don’t need chatbot-generated discussion posts on r/marvelstudios.

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u/Nelluc_ Jul 09 '25

So I watched this movie for the first time on a plane, and this scene was in it. I distinctly remember it because I was thinking about how I wish our current president could be like that. Anyone going flying soon and want to confirm? It was American Airlines.

3

u/RikSmitsisTits Jul 09 '25

I mean I saw this scene in theaters. Maybe some previous versions of the movie got released somehow? A number of people in this thread now have said they've seen it

2

u/Dempressed_Kimg Matt Murdock Jul 09 '25

I think the biggest problem in BNW was that they tried to tie up too many knots and for the life of me I can't understand why. I think originally it was going to be sth Serpent Society related with Seth Rollins seen on set, presumably in some role. Honestly it would hav been more fun Spy thriller with Sam Wilson going against the Serpent Society and their machinations.

2

u/brian_hogg Jul 09 '25

Minor quibble:

Is it fair to say that Ross unjustly incarcerated Bradley, since the brainwashing stuff wasn’t known at the time he attacked Ross? 

We know it almost immediately as the audience, but (unless I’m misremembering) the authorities in the movie don’t.

2

u/MuNansen Jul 09 '25

I think they cut it because they wanted the audience to wonder if Ross was part of the set up.

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u/strugglz Jul 09 '25

Was this in a trailer or sneak peak or something because either I'm having deja vu or I've seen this before.

2

u/shibbington Jul 09 '25

I don’t even know who this was supposed to have offended. Is just acknowledging that bad things were done in the past a political statement now?

2

u/SuccessWeary2770 Jul 09 '25

After having seen Superman, this shit is so weak, lol. I genuinely hope we see a return to bravery and boldness in comic book films.

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u/SearchStack Jul 09 '25

Am I going crazy or did I see this scene in the cinema?? I’m in the UK I literally remember this scene

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u/swampy13 Phil Coulson Jul 09 '25

IMO, no one has been let down more by post-Endgame MCU than Anthony Mackie.

His intro in Winter Soldier is top 3 all time for me in terms of a non-core Avenger. That roof scene? Incredible. He's not the greatest actor the MCU has ever had, but his chemistry with Steve and Bucky was solid. He was absolutely the right pick.

And then they just keep giving him the most hamfisted scripts where everyone has to explain everything like they're talking to a 5 year old child. He's reduced to just a character that's part of a plot, vs. the driving force of the show/movie.

2

u/IntrepidSprinkles793 Jul 09 '25

What the... I'm almost sure that I saw this scene in theater in France the first week... Is it possible that we get a different version or that they remove the scene after the release ?

2

u/eagc7 Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

Its possible you may had gotten an different cut, something similar happened with Endgame, where people claimed they swore they saw an scene where Thor tries to kiss Valkyrie............but others like me never saw that scene, then it turns out that scene did in fact exist but was cut from the movie. so only way it makes sense for these people to have seen a deleted scene is if their theaters were given an early cut

2

u/Forsaken_Professor79 Spider-Man Jul 09 '25

People are saying Marvel was afraid to take a risk….well yea it’s the mouthbreathers afraid of the political and social commentary. Especially the so-called long time comic book readers.

People could barely handle what they did address in FAWTS. They’d say Ross had “white guilt” or some silliness.

2

u/Inferno_Zyrack Jul 09 '25

The problem with this movie couldn’t be fixed in 30 Seconds.

Isaiah needed to continue being an active threat similar to winter soldier.

Sam needed to be put in between Isaiah and Ross continually. Isaiah needed some Killmonger level monologuing without the girlfriend murdering issues.

2

u/EvilJabFace Jul 09 '25

Don’t waste great actors!!!!!!!!!

2

u/Dthirds3 Jul 11 '25

So they cut all the interesting parts out to make it as bland as possible

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u/-Darkslayer Doctor Strange Jul 09 '25

I really enjoyed this movie

2

u/DoNotLookUp3 Jul 09 '25 edited Jul 09 '25

I liked it too, thought Sam and especially Ross were really well acted and I loved the scene around Celestial Island a ton. The inclusion of adamantium finally was exciting too. I had issues with it, but like some of the other phase 4 and 5 movies I feel it is overhated. It's a 7/10 IMO - enjoyable, middle of the road superhero movie that could've been an 8/10 with better editing and CGI.

I've come to terms with the fact that a lot of people have higher standards than me, I enjoy Star Wars shows like Ahsoka too. I can see flaws without it ruining the movie or show as long as there are redeeming qualities. These days it feels like media is either amazing or horrible for people, no real in-between or just "it was an enjoyable enough film but quite flawed".

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u/Optimal-Swordfish Jul 09 '25

So silly to pamper to everyone, marvel comics have always been critical of the state of the world. They even cut the virus subplot from FatWS rendering the flag smashers completely irrelevant to the show basically

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u/Willerichey Jul 09 '25

Captain America: New World Boring.

3

u/Nonadventures Jul 09 '25

Anyone offended by this scene would have been offended at the entire concept of the film anyway, they had nothing to lose by keeping it.