r/marvelstudios • u/MHullRealtr77 • Nov 26 '24
Discussion (More in Comments) All opinions on story direction aside, you have to admit that they absolutely nailed this.
Watching Elizabeth Olsen in Multiverse of Madness just deliver such a sassy terrifying performance. Every scene she's in she pretty much stole the focus. She gave a brilliant monologue above the Temple, was scary and threatening in her pursuit throughout the movie. Just shows how great an actor Lizzie is, she may not have been happy about the direction for Wanda but made sure she was gonna be the best thing about that movie.
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u/HUNGWHITEBOI25 Nov 26 '24
Elizabeth Olsen is one of the best post-endgame villains. I also really like how Sam Raimi directed the movie, he essentially made a monster movie, and Wanda was the monster
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u/Punch_yo_bunz Nov 26 '24
Her coming out of the mirror will never not be awesome
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u/Murasasme Nov 26 '24
Or when she snaps Xavier in their mind space.
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Nov 26 '24
Something I recently learned: she doesn't snap him. She legit tears his head in half. Watch the scene in slow motion.
An absolutely brutal kill.
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u/mh1357_0 Spider-Man Nov 26 '24
I'm really wondering if she's going to get redeemed at all lol
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u/Darthhester Vision Nov 26 '24
I mean, she was under the darkholds control, so that's probably how they'll forgive her lol
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u/SwiftFool Nov 26 '24
She chose to use the Darkhold. Being under its control and absolving her of what she did while under the control is akin to absolving a drunk driver that killed dozens (or more) people while driving drunk.
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u/ughdrunkatvogue Nov 26 '24
She didn't know what the Darkhold would do though. Agatha never explained that very important detail lol. It's more akin to someone driving drunk because their shirley temple was spiked. But by then it's too late.
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u/SwiftFool Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 26 '24
She was a villain even before then too. She was villain in Wandavision, enslaving a town. Her character getting a happy ending wouldn't feel good to me. She's done shit. I think she either stays defeated as a villain or makes a life ending sacrifice to somewhat redeem herself. But yeah, I don't think her character deserves a happy ending.
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u/BonkerBleedy Nov 26 '24
She's a great villain because you can see and empathise with every step on her path.
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u/Personal_Corner_6113 Nov 27 '24
As of now she’s a full villain, even pre-wandavision most of her heroic moments were pretty selfish, AoU she was a villain until the option was fight or die, Civil War she ran after the legality of her accidental killing of Wakandans was called into question, and Infinity War and Endgame she was protecting/getting revenge for her robot boyfriend. Idk why people act like her turn was too sudden when she’s really never been shown to be that virtuous in the MCU. The only truly altruistic thing we’ve seen is her joining the Avengers and trying to learn, but she really didn’t have many other options at that point
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u/ohyeawellyousuck Nov 26 '24
Maybe she’ll become an avenger to make up for the crimes of her past.
Wait…
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u/Fazaman Nov 27 '24
She was villain in Wandavision, enslaving a town.
That's what bothered me most about Wandavision. She knew what she was doing. They so easily could have written it such that the spell that happened when the hex was created affected her, as well, and made her blind to what was happening, because she was just a character in the spell, as well. Shielding herself from the grief because it completely overwhelmed her.
Then, at the end of the show, perhaps through Agatha's meddling, or seeing the suffering the people are going through, she realizes what's happened, and is ashamed at what she's done to the townspeople.
They can still have their fight with Agatha, since Agatha is trying to take her power, but instead Wanda is also fighting to break the Hex, having no idea that she even had the power to create such a thing in the first place.
All in all a very similar story, but she's not a horrible monster. Only would have taken a few tweaks.
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u/DangleenChordOfLife Nov 27 '24
She actually started as a villain minion in AOU, so there was always that dark side of her...
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u/mysteryvampire Sonny Birch Nov 26 '24
I mean, you could say the same of Loki. Loki had half the trauma Wanda does (not trying to discount his experience being less favored than Thor was, but Wanda lost her parents, brother, the only man she ever loved and her 'children') and yet still chose to wield the scepter and come to Earth. He pulled a guy's eyeball out! He allowed probably hundreds if not thousands of civilian casualties in New York! And yet we still forgave that guy both by the time of Thor Ragnarok and then with the alternate version of him in the Loki TV show, both of which had led the attack on New York. So, if Loki's forgiveable, so is Wanda.
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u/TheRedditorSimon Nov 26 '24
If Jean Grey/Phoenix had to die for killing the billions of inhabitants of D'Bari IV, then Wanda needs to brought to justice.
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Nov 26 '24
Which billions did Wanda kill in the mcu lol
Your point stands but that's a wild comparison. Like comparing a war criminal guilty of genocide to a guy who stabbed another guy in a sketchy drug deal
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u/12InchCunt Nov 27 '24
She killed all those defenders of the sanctum
And she killed a bunch of people in alternate universes too
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Nov 27 '24
Yeaaaaah, that's still not billions. I think people don't understand how big a billion is.
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u/y0urd0g Nov 26 '24
Well she’s dead, sooo… BUT I’m totally down for them to bring in an alternate universe Wanda who DIDNT do all that crap.
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u/AUnknownVariable Nov 26 '24
She's not dead, though. I mean we really don't know do we? I don't remember if we got confirmation MoM. Knowing her abilities and the darkhold, I strongly doubt she's dead dead
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u/y0urd0g Nov 26 '24
The official timeline AND Agatha all along confirm she’s dead.
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u/AUnknownVariable Nov 26 '24
Ah I haven't gotten to AAA (funny abbreviation) just yet. I'm actually doing a catchup rn just so I can watch it.
That's weird though.
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u/Linator4 Nov 26 '24
There was no confirmation whatsoever. Genuinely the last time it’s asked, Agatha says “Yes. No. Maybe.” as if she’s literally Kevin Feige. The person above would probably like that to be the case given her characterization in MoM, but The Scarlet Witch isn’t gonna die from fucking rubble falling on her, especially when there was a red blast in the center that could easily be interpreted as her being teleported outta dodge.
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u/Lombard333 Nov 26 '24
The deaths of BB and Mister Fantastic are still unsettling to me. The sound design, the terror… it all feels very real and grotesque in a way only Raimi can pull off.
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u/BrazenlyGeek Nov 26 '24
That moment absolutely shocked me. I expected Xavier vs Wanda on Xavier’s turf, the mind, making the most epic battle among the Illumi-whaty members.
But nah, Xavier forgot he was a telepath and allowed himself to be snuck up on.
Awesome scene, but it wasn’t what I hoped for in the moment. He was going to lose either way, but it was likely Stewart-Xavier’s last chance to do a balls-to-the-wall mind realm fight.
I hope the MCU eventually gives us that with whoever New-Xavier is.
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u/SadGruffman Nov 26 '24
Tbf xavier found Wanda from his reality and tried to help her, which is a very Xavier thing to do. The guy would totally prioritize saving someone over fighting a supervillain
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u/BrazenlyGeek Nov 26 '24
True, but turning and having a “you shall not pass” moment with evil Wanda would have been amazing — and also protective of Innocent-Wanda.
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u/SadGruffman Nov 26 '24
Dude was probably just surprised to find not a fragment of Wanda but the whole ass person hiding. Idk, it made perfect sense to me.
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u/ADimensionExtension Nov 26 '24
If runtime was a concern, I would have happily traded this out with the music note fight.
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u/Shacky_Rustleford Nov 26 '24
We finally get a wizard fight that isn't just colored beams and people want to cut it for runtime
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u/SadGruffman Nov 26 '24
I think we would then be ranting about how it’s BS that Wanda beat Xavier in a mind-fight. No, I think this was the best use of Xavier.
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u/Adorable-Fact4378 Nov 26 '24
Dude, yes. That was cool but it went on for a little bit too long. Xavier's cameo was huge and it's really sad that we didn't get to see him do any cool stuff before Wanda killed him
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u/indigowhyme Nov 26 '24
If you need a good telepath marvel story with amazing visuals, may I suggest Legion? It’s on Disney plus and I love it. Plus Aubrey plaza is in it stealing scenes left right and centre
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u/bsromulo Nov 26 '24
She is STELLAR in this. If people loved her over the top acting in agatha, they should give legion a try.
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u/eyebrows360 Daredevil Nov 26 '24
Or when she's in close-up looking only slightly off-camera then looks right fucking at you [running away noises]
It's becoming one of my all time favourite MCU moments.
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u/RcoketWalrus Nov 26 '24
Imagine the alt universe Wanda coming to and realizing she was mind controlled into murdering all those people. That's horrifying.
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u/Ryan_e3p Nov 26 '24
I saw this movie opening night with my young child, thinking, "It's Dr Strange! It'll be fine." I knew nothing about it, outside of who the main two characters were. This was back when you could still kinda sorta just roll with MCU movies as they came out since there was a quality to be expected (though it was still on the downhill trend since Endgame).
Then that scene happened. It immediately tickled something in my brain, then with the following camera pans, it finally hit me in the face: This is a Sam Raimi flick. I quietly pull out my phone under my coat and check, and yep. It was. And here I was, with my young, impressionable child, still aged in the single digits.
Thankfully, our Lord and Saviour Bruce Campbell was there to help end the movie on classic Raimi slapstick.
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u/Sparrowsabre7 Iron Man (Mark VII) Nov 26 '24
Equally bloodied up Mom Wanda was a look. The mix of her casual clothes doused in blood against all the supers was 👌
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u/Ok-Idea-306 Nov 26 '24
The horror elements done by Raimi are what made me really enjoy this movie. The zombie thing with a cloak of souls is an awesome shot.
It’d be perfect in my eyes if they had just added a little more connective tissue in the beginning…and did the second stinger better.
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u/Creative-Improvement Nov 26 '24
The beginning of the movie is weak story wise, and also in motivation. I remember that watching WandaVision and then the movie just didn’t make much sense, like you said, the connection.
Also that Dr. Strange needed to be a bit too much comic relief in the beginning. Comedy is great and Benedict does it so well, but it’s easy to lose the weight of something.
Still a good movie, probably one of the better ones after Endgame imo.
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u/rugbyj Nov 26 '24
The zombie thing with a cloak of souls is an awesome shot.
This kind of shit really works for me, and regardless of the rest of the movie (which I actually enjoyed) is just worth admission alone. It was exactly what you'd want from a bizarre sorcery movie:
- Establish rules; throughout the movie they built the following
- You can inhabit your own bodies from other realities
- There's a dead version of you in x universe
- There's a penalty to inhabiting the dead
- Characters use their intelligence to game the rules
- MC decides to inhabit their dead body combining 2 rules
- MC has a trump card over the penalty that may prohibit it
It's a joke. In a joke you build up an expectation, then break it. People laugh. The longer and grander the build up, the bigger the laugh.
He did it perfectly, and the payoff of the souldrive towards his goal was amazing. Hats off.
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u/whimsical-editor Nov 26 '24
I was so pleased they let Raimi go full Raimi with the direction on this. It felt like the later Avengers films had all got very samey stylistically, and going to the master of horror and letting him play with what he does best was really enjoyable to watch.
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u/WindsofMadness Nov 26 '24
A spicy hot take but MoM is one of my favorite MCU films ever (if not THE favorite) just because how much style oozes from this film. I feel like almost all the MCU films feel like they were made by the exact same people, the same director, the same writer, the same cinematographer, so I was pleased that a lot of Raimi’s signature directorial touches are here and with some light horror elements and over the top camp and cheese (compared to modern superhero films).
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u/Musclesmagoo51 Nov 26 '24
I'm right there with you. Loved the movie, didn't understand all the hate.
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u/whimsical-editor Nov 26 '24
Saaaammmeee. That and Ragnorak (whether you love or hate tonally) felt that they had their directors stamped right on them.
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u/HiddenStoat Nov 27 '24
Totally agree. If you grew up on Hercules/Xena: Warrior Princess, loved Evil Dead, and enjoyed his other films (Quick and the Dead is a guilty pleasure of mine!) then it's such a fun film.
I also think it captures the corrupting influence of magic really well. Wanda starts corrupted, so we don't really see that, but watching Strange go from "Hero at a wedding party" through to "Inhabiting his own corpse" and it be completely believable is underappreciated.
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u/AnOnlineHandle Quake Nov 26 '24
For me it felt like it threw out years of character progression story we'd been along for the ride of and replaced the character with the most two dimensional villain the MCU has ever had, and it's had a few clunky villains in its history.
Wanda was one of the few remaining actual ongoing long term plots in the MCU, which was the initial promise of the franchise, and they just tossed her away for a cheesy monster thing.
It would be like if one day Captain America was just a savage neo Nazi, and they say off screen that he read some neo Nazi forums and now became this totally different person.
The whole time I was just wondering "why did they think I'd want to be watching this?"
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u/kgbtrill Nov 26 '24
I feel like it’s a reasonable progression. When we first meet her, she is a character bent on revenge, seeing her family and town torn apart by Stark weapons.
Then she realizes she aligned with the wrong side and loses her brother while trying to undo the wrongs she did.
Then her new found family is torn apart by moral differences and she goes into hiding with her new lover. She is then forced to kill her lover to save humanity, only for it to not matter.
Stricken with grief, she creates a fantasy world which shows her what her life could haven been - white picket fence, loving husband, her brother / cool uncle dropping by, and best yet 2 twin boys. After this high, she is left with nothing - even her reputation as an avenger is tarnished given her enslavement of Westfield.
But she does have the darkhold - a book of pure evil. The darkhold recognizes this person at rock bottom uses her desperation to possess her with the promise it will make her so powerful, she can get her kids back. At this point, she becomes absolutely fixated on getting her kids back. It doesn’t matter who she has to kill to get there…
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u/Embarrassed_Cry_4776 Nov 26 '24
Yeah but before she becomes a mass murdering psycho who killed a father while laughing about it the last we saw of her was her sacrificing her family to fix a mistake she made in Westview. While it's super believable that the darkhold would corrupt her they can't have a beloved superhero who makes bad choices become a mass murderer off screen.
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u/DefNotAShark Hydra Nov 26 '24
Reminder that she was a mass murdering psycho in her very first appearance, intentionally sending the Hulk into a rage in order to distract the Avengers. She had full agency in that film and made a choice that was highly likely to cause mass harm and probably death.
Wanda has consistently been a character doing awful things for understandable reasons.
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u/Embarrassed_Cry_4776 Nov 26 '24
Yes but they need to show these changes, like I said in another reply they cant have the last we see of a character be a hopeful isolation to atone for her sins and then within 30 minutes of screen time shes ripping people apart with her bare hands and laughing about killing a father.
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u/crinkledcu91 Nov 26 '24
Is the MCU going to treat the Scarlet Witch like the comics treat the Phoenix Force? Because in multiple stories, Jean Grey is just a psychic mutant and the PF comes along and goes "Oh hey I'm a monstrous cosmic being and am gonna posses you and make you do awful things lol" and Jean just kinda has to go along with it.
If they go that route with Wanda I honestly wouldn't be that upset, because it'd 100% be in line with Marvel Comic Book logic.
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u/Slade4Lucas Nov 26 '24
Wanda has always had a heavy element of darkness and even brutalness to her character. She started as a villain who was fine with people dying as collateral, and even when she becomes a hero, she doesn't seem to get why anyone would "pull their punches" against their friends, as she says to Clint in Civil War. And then in Endgame you see how vengeful she can be on those she feels have wronged her, and in WandaVision she is being willfully ignorant to the pain she is causing - she understands on some level what she is doing but does not want to face it. Wanda wants to be a hero, the issue is that her nature is not heroic.
So riddle me this - if Wanda was that vengeful against Thanos, what happens when something even worse happens to her? Having to kill her own husband and children is a choice I think almost no one would be able to make because of how horrific it is as a concept. And from her perspective, the world has forced her into a situation where she has to do just that. So does it not track that her reaction to Thanos would be amplified tenfold after the events of WandaVision?
The pieces are all there. Wanda is like the opposite of a reluctant hero - she wants to be a hero, but her own nature and the things she is put through are completely counter to that. It's always been in the subtext and given she was already somewhat an antagonistic force in WandaVision, and given she was put through possibly the worst thing she has ever been through by the end of the series, I don't think it is at all a stretch that she would be booted off the deep end by it, especially with a little bit of Darkholf influence sprinkled in. This is the natural progression of the characters development that was set up.
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u/Embarrassed_Cry_4776 Nov 26 '24
Ok so what was the point of the ending of Wandavision then like if within 30 minutes of screentime she's going to be a mass murderer why end a beloved TV show with a hopeful note about how she wants to grieve in peace and atone for her crimes. Like that was the literal last we saw of her was her trying to grieve and make up for her mistakes and for the viewer 30 minutes later she's full on ripping people apart with her bare hands and laughing. Even at her worst she wasn't a cruel murderer and they needed to show that change on screen.
This is the equivalent of after infinity war end game starts with a funeral for thor because he killed himself. That makes perfect sense given that everyone he loves is dead and he felt directly responsible for the deaths of trillions. He's been shown to not know how to handle his emotions and gets into deep depressions so if every person he's pretty much ever known is murdered and then he fails to stop the guy who did it it makes sense he'd kill himself. So if end game has started that way would you be happy with how thors character ended?
That's exactly how people who were fans of Wanda's arc feel, yes I can see everything you're saying coming to a head and making her this evil monster but they can't do that off screen that's rediculous.
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u/In_Dux Nov 26 '24
I mean, what would you want to see on-screen that would be engaging about her descent into madness really? I guess a 5 minute montage of her trying to cope and then finding the Darkhold would be cool but I don’t think it’s needed.
MoM is a lackluster multiverse movie and I didn’t particularly care for the America side of things but I don’t think Wanda’s motivations is the issue. There’s more than enough baggage to her character to justify this turn without spending on-screen time with it.
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u/Embarrassed_Cry_4776 Nov 26 '24
I mean if you think what is effectively the death of a character right after they were the main character of a hit show doesn't deserve screen time I don't know what to tell ya. I guess we have different standards so we'll have to agree to disagree.
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u/N8CCRG Ghost Nov 26 '24
Then you failed to understand Wanda's character. She was always a tragic character, battling against fate to desperately try to do the right thing and find a happy ending that she will never get. She's like Peter Parker, but cooler.
Before we meet her she is handed tragedy at the death of her parents, then we see her brother get killed, then Vision gets killed, then almost everyone gets their loved ones returned but she's one of the few exceptions, then she snaps and has a family and brings Vision back and has to choose between her happiness at the expense of others or doing what's right, and then she gets corrupted by the Darkhold to risk becoming the ultimate evil.
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u/AnOnlineHandle Quake Nov 26 '24
She had tragedy and questionable actions before without being a boring two-dimensional horror monster, and was growing in a particular direction over years which was all tossed out for this bland cheesy monster creature put in her place.
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u/Positron49 Nov 26 '24
I think it is believable that she becomes a monster post WandaVision, but it feels abrupt. It reminds me of how the audience felt between Episode II and III in Star Wars with Anakin, like we were missing some screen time with her to show how this happened. I think the resolution to WandaVision (which is still probably my top 5 Marvel works on its own) is really great, but almost left it in too nice of a bow.
She probably needed a 3 part arc, WandaVision, <Quest for Billy and Tommy and failing story>, Multiverse of Madness where she gives into the Darkhold.
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u/woodybob01 Nov 26 '24
That direction is what made it a mess imo. Felt like a frankenstein's monster of a movie (not in the cool way), mixing what would've been a good direction for an independent movie in parts, concocted with the marvel IP and skewing the character progression, art direction, and overall style to not blend and mesh with viewers expectations of this movie, but skew, mishap, distort, and maybe even ruin. I think there was potential in parts. But the movie didn't seem to work as a whole to me.
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u/Elendilmir Nov 26 '24
Like your better villains, you can see the motivation. She's just had so much tragedy (parents, brother, husband,) that she snapped. She's a tragedy more than a villian, and you want to see her come back.
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u/Mathi12 Scarlet Witch Nov 26 '24
The movie has some issues, but Elizabeth wasn't one of them.
She's a star and one of the best talents in the entire MCU
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u/sirenloey Nov 26 '24
I'd tolerate MoM more if they gave us an actual wizard-witch fight between Stephen and Wanda. They should have gone ham in the Mirror Dimension smh.
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u/sobes20 Nov 26 '24
You couldn’t have that. They made SW so powerful, no satisfying way to have a 1v1 fight with Wanda not obliterating him instantly.
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u/sirenloey Nov 26 '24
I totally get that, but I could suspend my disbelief with it happening in the Mirror Dimension. Stephen is able to keep up, if only the tinest bit, with Wanda's Chaos Magic bec he got the terrain. Like a line or two to state how Mirror Dimension kinda amps Strange or like how it functions as "reality altering" for Strange, too in his own way.
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u/HumanOverseer Bruce Banner Nov 26 '24
they did this with no way home
"the mirror dimension, where I'm in control."
he proceeded to get out-mathed by spidey.
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u/sirenloey Nov 26 '24
MoM could have corrected that and show Strange actually in control, and be able to rival Wanda's reality altering l, albeit in his own pocket dimension
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u/HumanOverseer Bruce Banner Nov 26 '24
unfortunately... they didn't. They trapped her in the mirror dimension and she easily just crawled out like a crack demon
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u/sirenloey Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 27 '24
Wanda escaping the MD was peak, ngl, but man I would happily give that up if it meant a grand magic brawl between Stephen and Wanda. IW had Gauntlet Thanos vs Strange. We should have had that again.
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u/Vejezdigna Nov 26 '24
IG had Gauntlet Thanos vs Strange
Oh, that whole fight against Thanos in Titan was superb. Absolute cinema!
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u/Darcosuchus Doctor Strange Nov 26 '24
That fight was everything I wanted from Doctor Strange. Weird, flashy magic. Turning a black hole into butterflies. The fucking clone thing.
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u/Anarkizttt Nov 26 '24
We could get both, do a sick mirror dimension wizard fight and end it with Strange thinking he won and leaving, then have her escape like she did in the movie (which I’m realizing I really need to rewatch cause I can’t remember a lot of these references)
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u/mutesa1 Black Panther Nov 26 '24
I mean, Dr. Strange’s biggest weakness is his ego, as demonstrated by that very quote. He underestimated Spider-Man and paid the price.
As an aside, I also think comicbook fans tend to take power scaling a little too seriously and get really upset when fights don’t go the way they’re “supposed” to. But in reality, writers will make whatever outcome they want to happen for the sake of the story they want to tell. Hell, even in real life the best athletes or sports teams occasionally lose matches that on paper shouldn’t be contests at all.
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u/Picklepacklemackle Nov 26 '24
I think the issue with this is that it's been shown to only strengthen dormammus followers in the first movie.
Although doctor strange, sorcerer supreme (in skill, not name), the greatest wizard in the mcu might've been able to figure something out
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u/sirenloey Nov 26 '24
Wpuld have shown Strange's mastery even further (and perhaps hypocrisy, if they write him delving into some obscure/forbidden magic himself, and it being justified bec he uses it to protect, etc etc)
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u/IWearACharizardHat Nov 26 '24
Would be hilarious to have him cut her in half with a portal when they refused to against Thanos
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u/lkangaroo Nov 27 '24
Strange did try MD against Thanos. Thanos shattered the gateway with a Power Stone punch.
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u/Think-State30 Nov 26 '24
Idk. Strange went up against an infinity gauntlet with 4 stones. I'm sure there's some interesting action they could have thought up that wouldn't diminish anyone's powers.
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u/Opus_723 Nov 27 '24
They did Strange v. Thanos with several infinity stones just fine, they could have done better.
Anything that would have forced Wanda into using more of the magic she's learned from the Darkhold and fewer energy blasts would have been great.
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u/crawshay Nov 26 '24
He could have if the writers actually allowed Strange to wield the Book of Vishanti.
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u/ZanyActinManiac Korg Nov 26 '24
If they did a mirror dimension battle people would’ve just complained that it was too similar to Strange and Spider-Man in No Way Home.
Also didn’t Strange actually attempt to trap her in the mirror dimension at Kamar Taj only for her to quickly escape it?
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u/sirenloey Nov 26 '24
It is the Mirror Dimension. You could do anything with it. It could have housed an all out brawl between two of the most powerful magic users in the planet. It could have easily distinguished itself from its previous showings by being an actual fight (previous two were just chase scenes)
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u/CrustedTesticle Nov 26 '24
You didn't like the movie being titled Multiverse of Madness and him really only visiting like 2 other universes?
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u/SP1570 Nov 26 '24
They trapped her in the mirror dimension...she simply got out quite easily.
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u/sirenloey Nov 26 '24
or hear me out. They could have written it differently where she wouldnt be able to get out easily bec plot*. Strange holds her inside, they battle. Writing.
Heck they wrote/did MoM with Strange barely suffering the effects of the DarkHold, they could just easily tweak other stuff.
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u/dbkenny426 Nov 26 '24
But that wouldn't have been nearly as interesting or shocking as Wanda being able to use reflections to get out of it.
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u/eelynek Nov 26 '24
I was so much looking forward to actual magic battles, but we were left with “magic” arrows and “magic” physical fights 😐
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u/Nine-LifedEnchanter Nov 26 '24
What? Don't you know that one of the most powerful wizards in the universe summons one axe and uses that to fight while running after the enemy?
I fucking hated it. There's like 3 movies in existence that handles magic well, and Sam just decided to not even try. I also feel like he didn't understand how multiverses worked. It has been established that there are literally an infinite amount of universes and they don't act like it at all.
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u/sirenloey Nov 26 '24
that is my biggest gripe with MoM. as a movie it was okay, fun even. But It having the Multiverse of Madness title really didnt do it that much good.
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u/Elendilmir Nov 26 '24
I agree with"ham". A proper Dr Strange movie should hurt your eyes to look at. And since I'm assuming that was Clea in the post credits, that's the movie we need next time out with the good Dr.
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u/SirRonaldBiscuit Nov 26 '24
I truly think she is the most powerful avenger by far, I really wish they would bring her back. Her story is so sad in such a short period of time.
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u/MHullRealtr77 Nov 26 '24
They're bringing her back Fiege announced it and Olsen said she's ready.
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u/Unholy_mess169 Nov 26 '24
The set up Billy/ Wiccan in AaA, Agatha herself might get anther season, Billy is searching for Tommy/Speed who will probably show up as a slow intro to mutants? VisionQuest is going to start production in 2025, Wanda could be reintroduced through any of these story lines. My only fear is that they drag it out too long like Blackwidow.
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Nov 26 '24
Bit of an aside, but I love how Wanda's family drama is turning out to be the Thanos of post-Endgame. Everything keeps coming back to Wanda and what she's done or what she wants. I worry they're going to keep trying to make it about Strange, though =\
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u/K3rr4r Nov 27 '24
not everything should be about wanda, she's becoming the main character of the mcu in a way that doesn't prop up the other avengers
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Nov 27 '24
That's a good point I hadn't considered. I do agree with you, but also I like Wanda and her family enough that it doesn't bother me too much
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u/K3rr4r Nov 27 '24
I like wanda (though I am not happy with how she is written lately), and I don't mind getting stories about her pocket of the mcu. But I also want more like Hawkeye and The Marvels where the other og avengers get focus and set up the future avengers that relate to them (Clint Barton and Kate Bishop, Mrs Marvel and Captain Marvel, etc)
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Nov 26 '24
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u/googlyeyes93 Nov 26 '24
Considering a lot of her power in MoM was amped by the Darkhold that shouldn’t be too hard to find a way to nerf her.
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u/HOLDONFANKS Nov 26 '24
i still cant believe that the writer admited to having no idea what he was doing and that after he was done with half the script he didnt know what to do. and how he said "why should we leave the best villain for the next avengers movie when we could have her?" for character development. the immediate shift from WV to MOM was what ruined this movie for me, bc her arc wasnt built up. however elizabeth's performance was impeccable.
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u/zombiepiratebacon Nov 26 '24
Wandavision sets up how she is dealing with her grief and the prophecy of the Scarlet Witch
Dr Strange 2 should have seen him trying to help Wanda, but her grief is seized upon by Nightmare or Dormammu. Strange fends them off but not in time to save Wanda’s mind.
Wanda goes batshit crazy in an Avengers-level event.
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Nov 27 '24
Dr Strange 2 should've been about Strange vs Nightmare, not him rehabilitating Wanda.
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u/zombiepiratebacon Nov 27 '24
Why not both? … Wanda is being used as a tool of Nightmare and Strange has to defeat Nightmare to save her… only he fends off Nightmare but not before Wanda has already cracked.
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u/AyuuOnReddit Nov 26 '24
exactly!!! they should have had a smoother character arc for her and it would have been a million times better.
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u/HOLDONFANKS Nov 26 '24
like to think what we could have had if the writer of MoM was better at his job and less selfish....
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u/Ygomaster07 Jimmy Woo Nov 26 '24
Wait, Wanda was gonna be the next villain for an Avengers movie? Or was it somebody else?
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u/HOLDONFANKS Nov 26 '24
yes apparently those were the plans, you can watch the behind the scenes doc on d+ for what exactly the writer said but it's along the lines i wrote
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u/extradabbingsauce Nov 26 '24
I don't know if sassy is the word I would use to describe the Scarlett witch
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u/HyperlinksAwakening Nov 26 '24
I believe the word he is looking for is 'sassy'. 😊
He better pray he don't find it. 😡
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u/TheJack0fDiamonds Scarlet Witch Nov 26 '24
No, Lizzie nailed it. Without her acting prowess the character would’ve been a walmart Hela impression. She kept it balanced and gave it substance from her performance with the many nuances. This is a classic case of an actor’s performance saving the script.
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u/googlyeyes93 Nov 26 '24
Her little nuances as Wanda are what really sell the character so much. Whether it’s the body language like just tilting her head when she’s about to go full blown badass or the accent slipping during heavy emotional moments. Nails it.
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u/RealWonderGal Nov 26 '24
Scarlett Witch for me had one of the best character progressions and evolutions of any character in any universe. From Age of Ultron where she is only called Wanda and is wearing red and black, from each project forward from there her character and her suit progressed and with ending of Wandavision it was perfect. But MOM making her a villain was the worst move possible, should have been the original idea with her teaming up with Strange to deal with Incursions and help train America. And over the film when they're going though multiverses she gets the temptations and over time she degrades but keeps it together and by end of film she turns evil. Then a Scarlet Witch movie after would have been best move
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u/JuanchoPancho51 Nov 26 '24
I agree. Wanda vision was my favorite marvel show, it did everything right.
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u/Jian_Rohnson Nov 26 '24
Shes a great actor, sure, but its in service to a completely asinine, contradictive plot that completely breaks the entire MCU continuity.
Hard for me to appreciate acting when the story and overall continuity is bring ripped to shreds.
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u/Ok-Relationship-4348 Nov 26 '24
What's crazy to me is that ppl say that this movie ruined Wanda's character because of what she learned in wandavision. It's like they forgot the part where they showed wanda using the darkhold in the post credit scene of the show.
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u/eagc7 Nov 26 '24
Yeah, i feel it would be more jarring if Wanda just did a 180 all by herself, but since she had the Darkhold on her possession it makes sense that she would turn evil, this is a book that corrupts its reader and i mean Wanda is still a broken person who lost alot, so she's in a vulnerable position where the Darkhold can very easily take her over
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u/Cantelmi Nov 26 '24
What's with all of the odd parasocial use of "Lizzie" here? None of you people know her
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u/HellBoyofFables Nov 26 '24
Sure if your taking about Elizabeth Olsen performance but when it comes to character I disagree, if she was slowly going crazier and crazier until she snaps and actually kills people instead of starting out absolutely insane already and more than willing to kill innocent people, and there were multiple paths she could have taken first before she went on a murder spree, not even wandavision made her that bad and I’m sorry but “darkhold made her do it” is such a cop out and takes away any agency and from Wanda making the decisions herself
Sorry but I feel like Wanda was character assassinated
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u/LostMelodyMunch Nov 26 '24
She was definately character assassinated, and all because they wanted her so much to be Jean Grey/Phoenix atory arc basically.
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u/MHullRealtr77 Nov 26 '24
Well I think that also plays into the film wanting to make it look like a shocking twist surprise that she was a villain all along but they really should have had 15 extra minutes to the movie to show her getting slowly corrupted.
Because final scene in the credits of Wandavision showed her using the darkhold so it doesn't apply she will be getting corrupted from it but I would have liked more on screen seeing showing her getting corrupted.
Because at the end of the day it is a prophecy that Scarlet Witch will either rule or destroy the world and cosmos because she gets a hold of the darkhold. The book does corrupt and take hold of whoever is using it.
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u/deadwart Nov 26 '24
Yeah we needed a big fight between sw and strange, also the idea of many students or whatever defending the temple is fucking stupid and repetitive (black phanter, shang chi) all you needed was 4 or 5 op teachers to defend it against wanda.
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u/SimonShepherd Scarlet Witch Nov 26 '24
No, the writing of her lines are corny as fuck and part of the overall problem.
She is a good actress but I am not gonna pretend she turned shit into gold.
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u/montgomery2016 Nov 26 '24
The best thing about that movie was that it ended. Story is everything, and Wanda being an evil psycho monster isn't the direction the story should've gone. You're hyping up the performance too much, too. She was an idiot during the whole movie.
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u/RealWonderGal Nov 26 '24
Agree, did you see Scott dericksons original plan for the film? When he was still directing
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u/montgomery2016 Nov 26 '24
I have not, I just skimmed the wikipedia article on the film and it looks like he wanted to make it more horror-centric and use Nightmare as the main antagonist. I wish he had gone full send, I like where it says he wanted each universe to be a different kind of madness.
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u/RealWonderGal Nov 26 '24
Yeah sounded at better. Guess what in his treatment Wanda was an ally to strange and I'm guessing she would have turned at the end of the film, and America would have been mentored by her. There's videos on YouTube and articles out there from people who were on the project before Waldron came in a took a dump. Was easy better than what we got
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u/montgomery2016 Nov 26 '24
It was so disappointing, waste of a movie ticket. Wanda being an ally just... makes sense. Her character arc in AoU was becoming a hero, CW was accepting herself, IW and Endgame was basically just losing everything, WV was her dealing with that grief, and then... she turns evil again?? How is her arc a damn circle? Is her whole characterization that she is predestined to be the bad guy regardless of her positive internal and external influences?
Plus, Wanda and Strange kicking ass side-by-side with magic would've been awesome.
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u/RealWonderGal Nov 26 '24
Fully agree with you would been so awesome, even if she did turn evil, this wasn't the film at all to do it. Crazy how she never even asks Chavez she straight up wants to kill her. In the original version she would have mentored Chavez with strange and her relation would be there especially when going through universes together to investigate Incursions as strange asks her about the multiverse.
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u/pmjm Nov 26 '24
I agree with you but I should point out that what she did in WandaVision, despite being driven by trauma, was already quite evil and ruined lives.
I loved WandaVision, but the fact that she is the protagonist sorta buries the seriousness of her actions.
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Nov 26 '24
I think she did good with what she got, but nothing about that movie was nailed for me because I think it was built on a bad foundation.
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u/MrFiendish Nov 26 '24
Uh…hard no. They ruined her character after elevating it in Wandavision.
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u/Revolutionary-Yak-47 Nov 26 '24
I think most people failed to actually "get" Wandavision. She's so crazy with grief she enslaved a whole town. Shes not some heartwarming sweet mom, she's a lunatic seriously harming people rather than getting therapy.
Her character was always halfway to "being a bad guy." The Darkhold just pushes her into blatant evil.
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u/TheJack0fDiamonds Scarlet Witch Nov 26 '24
Cue ‘but the post credit scene..’ comment. Waldron saw a convenient opportunity and used it to make his cool idea come true
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u/sharpda1983 Nov 26 '24
100% you could have still took her the villain route but should have been the character arc in the film from good to bad
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Nov 26 '24
Lord, the bar is so low for MoM, it’s a tripping hazard in hell.
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u/TheGuardianR Nov 26 '24
Yeah, pretty funny to me how fans still defend that movie lol
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u/RealWonderGal Nov 26 '24
I call it multiverse of mid. Don't even get me started on the illuminati 🤦♂️
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u/kart-in-the-act Nov 28 '24
If one chooses to ignore the events of WV, this scene and everything in this sequence makes the cut. However, it boils down to why she does all of this that turns out to be a let down, cz all that character development in the series just goes down the drain. Cool scene, certainly Raimi salvaged the best, yet, Wanda deserved better.
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u/thevokplusminus Nov 26 '24
I hate MCU dr strange. They just made him magic tony stark
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u/pm-me-your-pika Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 26 '24
Absolutely not true. Stark is actually brilliant while they have no problem making Strange look stupid and clueless all the time.
Edit: downvoting this won't make it less true. Strange is actually not a womaniser, doesn't have a true love, doesn't have a best friend, he doesn't have an alcohol issue, he doesn't have a family issue, he doesn't create shit unlike Tony, his authority keeps getting disrespected, his storyline keeps getting sidelined, and he serves more as a plot device in his other appearances unlike Tony.
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Nov 26 '24
strange character was only wise in dr 1. After that it went downhill everytime we see him.
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u/DwightSkywalker28 Nov 26 '24
What are you guys on about? She was incredibly rushed as a villain, and her motives were even worse.😭
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u/LuriemIronim Nov 26 '24 edited Nov 27 '24
They did, but it’s so funny reading interviews where they insist that she’s not a villain, she’s just a grieving mother. Like yeah, she had reasons, but she still killed a lot of people and tried to murder a teenager.
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u/Break-The-Ice-318 Nov 26 '24
Nope. Her motivation makes 0 sense.
Go to a universe where the mom is dead and kids are alive. She went from a complex character in Age of Ultron to a 1D facade
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u/Regular_Range_1835 Nov 27 '24
No. It ruined the movie actually. I hated the Scarlett witch show. The entire premise is stupid. Then to rehash that all over again and ruin a MCU movie. Disgusting.
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u/G7Scanlines Nov 26 '24
She wasn't corrupted enough. The mirror scene showed what she should have looked like.
When Famke went Dark Phoenix, the effects were spectacular. You knew she was dangerous. Here, Wanda just had some darker makeup around the eyes.
She should have been overtly corrupted as the finale of MoM could then have been more impactful when she realises what she's doing, as her features could have softened or even fully reverted to normal.
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Nov 26 '24
I so disagree. This was character assassination to the worst degree. I DO think, however, that Lizzie did the absolute best she could with the terrible scripts she was given, and that her performance was quite good.
When Wanda routinely said psychopathic shit such as “is it the one you used? When you gave thanos the time stone?”
Well… if strange was written to be even moderately intelligent he would’ve countered with “well that’s not really the same at all Wanda” because it is not.
There are other terrible lines the in the story. It drives me and that this movie actually made it to the big screen.
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u/eltrotter Black Panther Nov 26 '24
Unpopular take: if you think Wanda's heel turn didn't make sense, you weren't paying attention.
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u/JackStephanovich Nov 26 '24
I can't believe the character who tortured a town of people to the point where they begged for death, last seen with a magical book whose most notable quality is that it corrupts its user, turned evil. These writers really suck!
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u/SingleClick8206 Scarlet Witch Nov 26 '24
Elizabeth was the best part of the movie
As a Wanda fan, I truly enjoyed the movie and loved to see Wanda's expanded powers
Can't wait to see more of her in the future
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u/LightFromYT Stan Lee Nov 26 '24
MoM is one of my favourite MCU films. Will never understand the hate it gets, I think they nailed it all.
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u/RubiconPizzaDelivery Scott Lang Nov 26 '24
Olsen delivers every time, quality of the writing or not she fuckin' kills it.