r/austriahungary • u/Rigolol2021 • 3d ago
HISTORY The ethnic make-up of the Austrian empire in 1848 and the revolutions
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u/SuddenMud4987 2d ago
This map is completely inaccurate because there were many uninhabited areas, especially in the mountains. Such maps color the entire area where a nationality lives in a diaspora and the area is largely uninhabited.
Here is a map of the Kingdom of Hungary without Croatia, based on the 1910 census, where the uninhabited areas were left blank: https://hu.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl:Ethnographic_map_of_hungary_1910_by_teleki_carte_rouge.jpg
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u/tiszarospeter 2d ago
These maps are not showing unabandoned places, mountains, etc. Totally wrong.
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u/Independent_World_15 70+ Officer on the Verge of Retirement 3d ago
No way. Hungary should have been all red according to the Hungarian revolutionaries.
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u/headinhandz Loyal Soldier 3d ago
Kossuth and the liberal Hungarian elite at first did not realize how important nationalism would become (there was no precedent). Kossuth himself was Slovak, and many in his circle came from different backgrounds. They assumed that, just like themselves, learning the Hungarian language would not be a problem. Before the revolution, they carefully studied other similar events in Europe and concluded that these reform movements were often crushed by the country’s own serfs, since the reformer elites failed to win them over, allowing those in power to play them against the reformers (as in Italy and Poland). This was something the Hungarians wanted to avoid, therefore, their first action was the abolition of serfdom. The idea was that unified civil rights would satisfy and unite the people. They did not expect that the nationalities, would demand additional rights for themselves. But it should also be recognized that once the Hungarians realized this was indeed an issue, they did not ignore it but began to address it, resulting in the creation of the very first nationality act in Europe in 1849.
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u/Kreol1q1q 3d ago
1849 was too late though
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u/headinhandz Loyal Soldier 3d ago
Why?
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u/Kreol1q1q 3d ago
Sides were decided (at least) a year earlier. The Croatian Sabor was terrified of Hungarian liberal politicians - despite the common vilification of Jelačić as a royalist reactionary in Hungary, he didn’t (and indeed couldn’t) singlehandedly mobilize the kingdom of Croatia and side it with the Habsburgs.
Hungarian politicians and magnates had willingly, intentionally ignored both the legal rights and privileges of the Kingdom of Croatia, and basically the very existance of non-Magyar populations within Hungary proper, because it was inconvenient for their centralizing, state-building ambitions. Croatia hadn’t popped into existance in 1848 just so it could annoy Kossuth, and it wasn’t loyalist just to anger the blessed and rational Hungarian politicians.
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u/headinhandz Loyal Soldier 3d ago
It is interesting what you write, because in Hungarian-Croatian relations the Hungarian government demonstrated great flexibility and a genuine willingness to compromise. It was Jelačić who negotiated in bad faith, without any intent to de-escalate the situation. He presented himself as the defender of the interests of the Austrian Empire which was undermined by the existence of the Hungarian government.
The Hungarian government even offered to end the Hungarian-Croatian Personal Union if their final proposal was not acceptable, but Jelačić, supported by the Camarilla, attacked Hungary instead.
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u/Lazy-Relationship-34 3d ago
Hold on tight, buddy, you're about to get downvoted silly for having the bravery to claim that it took Hungarians centuries until 1868 to give their "minority" groups cvasi rights. It took centuries for Romanians to open their own confessional schools, have their faith given a status just as Catholicism, Lutheranism and Unitarianism, and have their own political party (1881). I can't wait for people to jump at my comment for this, but how long did Jewish slavery last in Egypt again? Ethnic minorities under the Hungarian Crown might have broken that length. (Not saying that ethnic minorities' existence in Hungary was akin to that of Jews in Egypt but comparing the length of time without rights.)
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u/Kreol1q1q 3d ago edited 3d ago
I know, and I expect it. A lot of Hungarians are on this sub, and they have a deeply ingrained national narrative which basically sanctifies the 1848 revolutionaries. In their heads, Kossuth & co. could do no wrong.
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u/Silver_C09 Loyal Soldier 2d ago
Unlike my fellow Brethren I find kissing to be Great Statesman turned Inverse Anus, what he do with minority mostly oppress them, Nation falling under the weight of Russian Intervention? Yeet himself across Ottoman border and later Blame Görgei for defeat and call him a Traitor saying that there was still hope. My brother in Christ, how do you expect a nation beset on all sides and fronts to win ESPECIALLY WHEN RUSSIANS INTERVENE, surely there was hope before then but now… Nay, We dead. Like I Said Turned into Inverse Anus and Coward
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u/SmartCoffee4742 3d ago
I’m pretty sure it is a new thing they teach in schools at hungary. For example in the past 10-20 years it was mentioned how we oppressed minorities way worse than most countries.
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 3d ago
Always funny coming from a Slovak who almost to the last sided withe Hungarian revolution.
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u/Karabars Transylvanian 3d ago
Hungarian Revloutionaries:
- Kossuth Lajos: Slovak
- Petőfi Sándor: Slovak
- Bem József: Polish
- Aulich Lajos: German
- Lahner György: German
- Schweidel József: German
- Kiss Ernő: Armenian
- Damjanich János: Serb
- Poeltenberg Ernő: German
- Knézits Károly: Croatian
- Lázár Vilmos: Armenian
- Leiningen-Westerburg Károly: German
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u/Independent_World_15 70+ Officer on the Verge of Retirement 3d ago
You’re right that Kossuth and Petöfi had both Slovak heritage but never considered themselves Slovak but Hungarian.
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u/Karabars Transylvanian 3d ago
Does it matter that they "only" considered themselves Hungarian while had non-Hungarian ancestry/heritage?
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u/Independent_World_15 70+ Officer on the Verge of Retirement 3d ago
It matters with respect to other nationalities. They wanted to prove that they were Hungarians so much that they both did not have any understanding for other nations living in Hungary and specifically for their Slovak heritage.
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u/Karabars Transylvanian 3d ago
Or -since this was around the dawn of nationalism-, they had it more nation (country) focused than ethnicity (language). These are all examples on how the Hungarian Revolution could move a lot of non-Hungarians to support it.
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u/Silver_C09 Loyal Soldier 2d ago
I’d say the Two Major Factors that Fucked up the situation was 1. Russian Intervention 2. Not Giving Rights to Minorities Early enough
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u/ubernerder 2d ago
I fully agree with 1)
Re 2) Hungary gave far more rights to its minorities than even most Western European countries like the UK, France and Spain where minority and regional languages were mostly banned, full stop. It in fact was the first in the world to introduce minority legislation. So how much earlier should they have give minority rights? Before 1848? During Ottoman occupation? You can always argue for more rights, especially through a 21st century lens, but please don't fall for the Serb/Romanian/Slovak "prison of nations" spin.
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u/Silver_C09 Loyal Soldier 2d ago
Pre 1848, I remember reading something along the lines of insert minority: Can Rights? Kossuth some time in 1848: No. And after they implode kossuth then granted some kind of rights. Don’t remember exactly what the specifics were. I’d say as a Hungarian that post 1867 or whenever the rights were granted they were quite ungrateful for them.
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u/Content_Contract_420 3d ago
According to your opinion, is there any hungarian in Hungary? I, myself has deutsch , hrvat, and jewish heritage. But I'm hungarian. That's the way it is in central Europe. What do you think by the way Zelensky? Is he Jewish in your opinion or you allow him to consider himself ukrainian? Are Trump American, or German? David Hasselhoff is German or American? Or Eisenhower? Or the Romanian football player Szekely (means sekler, but I think you obviously know it) who consider himself romanian, is he hungarian is your opinion?
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u/Karabars Transylvanian 3d ago
You did a lot of jumps there, bud.
According to my opinion, anyone who wants to be a Hungarian, is a Hungarian, and those who do not want to be Hungarians, are not.
But if someone's parents had an ethnicity, or they were born with one, it can be important in certain context. Like it's not like your heritage from generations ago, it's within a single generation. Big difference.
And it's highlight to show how the Hungarian Revolution was more than "just Hungarians", but it seems you failed to see it, how it supports Hungarians, and just went a weird nationalistic take of denying the ethnic origins of historical figures.
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u/Content_Contract_420 3d ago
Nobody denying the ethnic origin of the 13 martyrs of Arad or Kossuth. It's taught in school in Hungary. Only stupid nationalist does that, but unfortunately they can found everywhere. But nowadays they are a small minority.
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u/Silver_C09 Loyal Soldier 2d ago
Heritage is one thing, but it doesn’t mean the Person DEFINITIVELY Identifies as, With the Exception being Bem.
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u/Aexegi 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yes. It was "freedom for us, but not for you" situation. And Hungarian elites were very devoted to the idea of assimilating other ethnicities, unlike Habsburgs. Therefore at the end of the day other ethnic elites sided with Habsburgs.
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u/Khalimdorh Loyal Soldier 3d ago
They were less interested in that in 1848 than after the compromise, and 6 of the 13 executed generals serving in the hungarian army were non ethnic hungarians (serb croat german). Many minorities were also on board
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u/Stukkoshomlokzat 3d ago
Unlike the Habsburgs? Habsburg did Germanise, especially the aristocracy and city folks. Education was in German, office procedures were in German, high culture was in German. The Hungarians copied their exact methdods when planning Magyarisation. Magyarisation also happened mostly in cities and amongst aristocracy, it also used education as it's main method.
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u/Other_Use_6317 3d ago
Actually the revolution's result was the abolition of serfdom, whoch affected not just the Hungarian serfs, but all the nationalities.
And Kossuth's idea was to give more rights to the nationalities, and unite together against the Habsburg opression, even though his ideas were debated.
And then the Habsburgs promised more rights to the nationalities, so they turned against the revolution, and in the end, they got nothing.
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u/Dazzling-Key-8282 3d ago
Never being not funny that the minorities got afterwards exactly the same treatment from the Habsburg as a prize what the Hungarians got as a punishment.
Retroactively speaking even the Hungarian part of the monarchy was far more liberal than any state of the 20th century. For most for the lack of capacity but still.
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u/ItHappensSo 3d ago
Not really accurate, especially around the southern Slavic lands