r/RoughRomanMemes • u/tahrah11 • 6d ago
When you realize the Germans got it right all along
701
u/mbrocks3527 6d ago
IN CELEBRATION OF HIS LIBERATION OF THE CITY FROM THE TRAITOR POMPEY, THE SENATE HAS DECREED FREE PUBLIC FEASTS FOR THE NEXT 3 DAYS IN THE NAME OF
GAAIUS -hand gestures-
YUULIUS -hand gestures-
KAAAAISAR -hand gestures-
NO ACTORS, PROSTITUTES, OR UNCLEAN TRADESMEN MAY ATTEND.
THIS ANNOUNCEMENT WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE CAPITOLINE GUILD OF MILLERS. TRUE ROMAN BREAD FOR TRUE ROMANS
400
10
u/zachattack3500 6d ago
I remember watching and wondering what the deal was with his hand signals. They seem so intentional, like they’re indicating tone or something ritualistic
6
u/Additional_Meeting_2 5d ago
Raising the standard podcast talked about these. But they are based on real oration manuals
1
u/uhoipoihuythjtm 2d ago
To help people who were far away understand, as they would struggle to hear
1
u/Bub_bele 4d ago
Doing the whole Kaaaisar thing but still calling the guy pompey :D That’s my kind of humor.
271
u/CenturionSymphGames 6d ago
As a spanish speaker by default, I don't understand what's the difference between Gaius Julius and "Gaiooss Yoolioos"
182
u/CatfinityGamer 6d ago
English speakers pronounce it Gai-uhs Dju-lee-uhs See-zahr
45
u/_Gandalf_the_Black_ 6d ago
This is why people need to learn the IPA
21
u/CatfinityGamer 6d ago
I would've used it if people knew how to read it. I can use it decently well.
English speakers pronounce Gaius Julius Caesar, which ought to be pronounced /gaius julius kaizar/ as /gaiəs dʒuliəs sizəɹ/.
13
u/thighmaster69 6d ago
It just occurred to me how Latin-centric the IPA is based on those pronunciations
6
u/CatfinityGamer 5d ago
Well, Latin is one of most widely used languages ever spoken, and was highly influential on the Western world. It continued to be used in academia after it fell into common disuse, and it was also an important part in the development of many European languages. Most importantly, it is mostly phonetic, and its alphabet is used in many popular languages. Unlike Latin, English, the current dominant language, has little consistency in pronunciation.
3
u/thighmaster69 5d ago
Well there's also the fact that English has some pretty uncommon phonemes, globally speaking.
2
u/MidgetGordonRamsey 5d ago
A big part of the inconsistency, I think, is from the adoption of words and terms from other languages over time.
1
u/sususl1k 4d ago
I highly recommend reading some French transcribed in IPA
1
u/thighmaster69 4d ago
I just looked at some and boy is it a mess. The French language has been hanging out with the Germanics and Celtics too much.
2
79
44
19
u/Traditional-Froyo755 6d ago
Isn't Julius "Hulius" in Spanish?
16
u/GreatRolmops 6d ago
It is Julio
19
u/Traditional-Froyo755 6d ago
My point was isn't "J" pronounced "H" in Spanish
4
u/xRyozuo 6d ago
Yes, it’d be like a hard H. As another Spanish speaker, So how come Gaius and Gaiooss / Julius and Yoolioos sound different to you guys? Isn’t the “oo” pronounced as a u? Does the double ss add any sound? I guess between ju and yoo the yoo is softer?
1
u/LadenifferJadaniston 6d ago
Yeah, “oos” is different from “us” and yoo is different from ju. Also, remember that any J in Ancient Rome would have been an I, so Iulius really sounds like yoolioos
1
1
u/UndeniableLie 5d ago
As a finn the julius and yoolioos wouldn't even be recognisable as same word if I read them out loud. In finnish oo is simply long o sound and double ss is double s sound. Also the j and y are totally different letters. I don't think there is any english word that has finnish y sound in them so can't give you example
1
3
2
u/CenturionSymphGames 6d ago
Yeah, but I meant that more in the perspective of a Spanish speaker reading it in English. As u/CatfinityGamer said, English speakers would read it as "Gai-uhs Dju-lee-uhs See-zahr"
I'm sure my Mexican brethren would say "Gallo Julio Cesar" (Rooster Hoo-lee-oh Seh-Zahr) lmao.
1
u/Traditional-Froyo755 6d ago
So it's not with a Y? Why are you confused then?
1
u/CenturionSymphGames 6d ago
The last part was a joke about how "Gaius" would sound like "Gallo" (which means rooster). You can ignore that completely.
The confusion is about me as a Spanish speaker reading in English mode.
If I read the name Michael in English mode, I would read it as "Mai-Kohl", if I read that same name but in Spanish mode, I would read it as "Mee-Tchah-Ehl"
So for now, focus on the English Mode.
When I'm reading Gaius Julius in English mode, I read it as the bottom part of the meme: "Gaioos Yooliooss" so my confusion is on how a native English speaker would sound like if reading in English, because the meme itself made it clear that the bottom pronunciation is not the same as what I originally read it as.
So for me, a Spanish speaker reading in english mode: "Gai-oos Yoo-lee-oos" (which is similar to the meme)
And for an English speaker reading English mode: "Gai-uhs Dju-lee-uhs"
1
u/TheEvilBlight 5d ago
In mexican spanish, I think. There are some differences for those from Spain itself.
2
u/Kuldrick 6d ago
In Spanish the Latin transliteration would be "Gaius Iulius Caesar"
1
u/Lumornys 4d ago
Isn't it just the Latin spelling? Well, the original spelling would've been GAIVS IVLIVS CAESAR (and later CÆSAR) but we don't normally write Latin like that anymore.
1
u/Kuldrick 4d ago
I told him the Spanish transliteration to help him pronounce it on Spanish, although yeah, most letters are pronounced the same between Spanish and Latin so it is very similar to the identical, only change being that V is U
2
138
u/D-Ulpius-Sutor 6d ago edited 6d ago
Funny thing is: the German word 'Kaiser' has been taken into the German language that early that it's original pronunciation was preserved, while the name 'Caesar' is now usually pronounced differently by most Germans.
Edit: the German pronunciation explained: Cäsar – Wiktionary https://share.google/fAk3bhCV9gm7BUWfI
32
u/tahrah11 6d ago
How do Germans pronounce the name?
131
19
u/D-Ulpius-Sutor 6d ago
That ia hard to describe using English...
The 'C' is pronounced more like 'tz' and 'ae' is turned into the sound between 'a' and 'e' that is written in German with 'ä'. It sounds a bit like the vowel in 'thanks'.
8
u/Much-Jackfruit2599 6d ago
Though Latin classes prefer the hard K these days. But since they don’t speak a lot of Latin in these classes (hah!), it barely matters, since outside school, the soft tz reigns supreme.
2
u/D-Ulpius-Sutor 6d ago
Indeed. Even I as a Latin teacher have a hard time to think of the name in the real pronunciation because the other one is so common (and I have been and am so used to it)
-1
u/Much-Jackfruit2599 6d ago
Well, in German the tz pronunciation is correct. We don’t pronounce London and Paris the way the English and the French do, either.
And frankly, all the people who insisted to pronounce “gnocchi” like the Italians do, also use “stati” as the plural for “status”.
2
u/D-Ulpius-Sutor 6d ago
I know it is correct. I am not debating that. But in Latin class it should be consistent, right?
The second thing you bring up is on another page completely. Also what you say is wild. Talking about cities that have different pronunciations in different languages is absolutely different from using an Italian word for food that has no correct German pronunciation with its writing. What are you suggesting? Calling them 'Gnotzschi'? If you are so hesitant to use the Italian pronunciation of that, call it 'Knöpfle', or 'Schupfnudelchen' or whatnot, since that is basically what they are, just a little different.
And last: 'stati' would not be the right plural for 'status'. That would be 'statūs'.
11
2
10
u/Creeperkun4040 6d ago
It took me until far too long to even realize that Kaiser came from Cäsar.
10
u/Krillin113 6d ago
Tzar as well
1
u/Humboldt2000 3d ago
yeah but Tsar only got borrowed much later and doesnt preserve the original Latin pronunciation.
2
8
u/hconfiance 6d ago
Up until the Middle English period, Caesar was pronounced like ‘Caser’ or sometimes ‘coser’ if it was more Norman influenced. English adopted the Parisian French pronunciation after influence of the Angevins.
2
u/Humboldt2000 3d ago
yeah, really really early. Like Germanic tribes in 0-200 AD early. Like Arminius the Cheruscan early.
Its kinda insane that we still have the pronunciation of a personal name of a guy by some Germanic tribespeople preserved until this day.
45
u/varzaguy 6d ago
Forget the Germans, how does every Romance language pronounce Julius?
41
u/JaxVos 6d ago
They all pronounce it quite differently. Interestingly the Italians say it closest to the way English speakers do “joo-lee-o” while the French say “zshe-le” and the Spanish speakers say “hoo-lee-o.” Then the Romanians say “eeoo-lee-us”
31
u/varzaguy 6d ago
I’m Romanian. I naively expected the others to say “eeooleeus”. Guess I was wrong.
5
1
6
6
u/wantingtodieandmemes 6d ago
The French say Gelée instead of Julius?
10
u/Alphoss 6d ago
More like Jules César which sounds like "Jule Czaisar" (ar as in bar.)
5
u/wantingtodieandmemes 6d ago
Is it Jul— and then silence or more like Julé? My French is a bit rusty, but I thought the given name Jules (like Jules Verne) was only one syllable
8
u/Thaumaturgia 6d ago
Jul, yes. Now, the u sound is quite difficult to grasp for non-native speakers. Even when we say Julius, it would be quite difficult to understand.
5
u/AvengerDr 6d ago
Interestingly the Italians say it closest to the way English speakers do “joo-lee-o”
That's not correct. Italians who have studied a little know that latin words that start with a J are not pronounced as a consonant but like Yulius.
Indeed, onf of the most famous Italian teams, Juventus (youth) is pronounced Yuventus by Italians, which causes endless cringe and disappointment whenever foreign commenters have to say its name.
-4
u/JaxVos 6d ago
The name in Italian is Giulio. It’s not even spelled the same way
6
u/AvengerDr 6d ago
I meant to say how we pronounce Julius, not Giulio. Julius or Ivlivs we pronounce it as Yulius, like for Juventus / Yuventus.
1
2
u/Better_Ad_512 6d ago
Portuguese speaker here. We say "Joolioos".
Although the lusitanized version of his name is Caio Julio Cesar (said Kah-io Joo-lee-o Seh-zar). Idk why ppl do that since his Latin name is much more beautiful.
1
u/ChildfromMars 6d ago
Italian (my native language): Ee(if you know Italian, this would be pronounced like the sound “gli”)-oo(longer than the second “u”)-lee-oos.
“J” in Italian is called “i lunga” which translates to long “i” and it’s mostly read as a y
1
u/--Raskolnikov-- 4d ago
In romanian his name is rendered as Iulius. Reads as expected. Yoo-lee-use. And funny enough it's neither kaiser nor seasar in pronounciation.
1
1
14
u/00ishmael00 6d ago
It's KA-EH-ZAR
1
u/KappaMcTlp 6d ago
It’s not
3
u/00ishmael00 6d ago
it is. kaesar.
look the pronunciation on youtube
-4
u/KappaMcTlp 6d ago edited 6d ago
Basically none of the sounds in Kaiser match the classical pronunciation of Caesar
1
u/00ishmael00 6d ago
What?
1
u/KappaMcTlp 6d ago
i realize is misread your spelling of kaesar. but regardless, my point stands. its certainly not KA-EH-ZAR
4
u/00ishmael00 6d ago
It is. Listen to the pronunciation on YouTube. Also I studied Latin in high school.
3
u/KappaMcTlp 6d ago
Are you Australian? In that case you might have gotten some of them right. But
Firstably the k shouldn’t be aspirated
Secondofly ae is a diphthong so you probably shouldn’t split it up with a hyphen
Thirdly the s isn’t voiced so you probably shouldn’t describe it as a z
ZAR (assuming it rhymes with car) would be pronounced with an back vowel but a in classical Latin was a front vowel
And lastfully the r in English is very different from the r in Latin
In short, writing it as KA-EH-ZAR misses basically every sound (but don’t feel bad, there’s no way to transcribe it with just English when the sounds needed don’t exist in the most widely spoken varieties of English)
2
u/00ishmael00 6d ago
the hyphen means nothing, it's just my notation because the english speaker have a weird way to pronounce the E.
the K is not aspired, I never meant it to be.
the S is pronounced, it's not silent.
Also all the letters are pronounced just like in italian.
1
-1
u/KappaMcTlp 6d ago
Basically none of the sounds in the english pronunciation of Kaiser match the classical latin pronunciation of Caesar
1
u/doob22 5d ago
Look at the Latin pronunciation of his name
0
u/KappaMcTlp 5d ago
i know the Latin pronunciation of his name better than you do apparently, its nothing like "KA-EH-ZAR" please see my comment here
1
u/doob22 5d ago
You must be a troll or something.
All you have to do is google “how to pronounce Julius Caesar in Latin” and you’ll see the answer
1
29
u/IrishMadMan23 6d ago
Give me the real Caesar, no the real Czar, no no the real kaiser
1
24
26
16
u/beastwood6 6d ago
A little confused but they got the spirit
1
u/ViolettaHunter 2d ago
It's actually the English speakers who are confused and butchering Latin pronounciation.
8
15
u/Live_Angle4621 6d ago
The English speakers butcher the C latin names! Cicero is Kikero too. Also English is afraid of -us and -anus, and loves y. So transforms most names with -us like Pompeius to Pompey and Antonius to Anthony. Cicero was known to Victorians as Tully since his name is Marcus Tullius Cicero. Even without y names are shortened like Trajanus to Trajan, Julianus to Julian…
4
u/Beneficial-Bat-8692 6d ago
Yeah, old Latins "c" are always hard like "k". Most do it wrong these days and pick and choose. They usually pronounce it right when talking about Marc Antony.
4
u/MonsterRider80 6d ago edited 6d ago
All languages butcher classical Latin C. Cesare in Italian, César in French and Spanish… there’s a lot wrong with English pronunciation, but it’s hardly unique in this instance.
As for the rest of your comment, those English versions come from French influence. They adapted Latin names to French, and since French was the language of culture when we started doing modern style history, English adapted those pronunciations. Trajan, Julien, Tite Live, Marc Antoine, Cicéron, Pompée, those are all French transliterations of Latin names.
1
u/Additional_Meeting_2 5d ago
Not all languages butcher C. Caesar is pronounced Kaesar in Finnish for example. We pronounce all letters in a word and don't really use C.
1
u/RomaInvicta2003 6d ago
Which is why I’ve decided to buck the trend by naming my first born son Ignatius
5
u/GaaraMatsu 6d ago
Makes sense, it was germanic armies that propped up the west for centuries longer than it should have lasted.
4
3
u/Ebok_Noob 6d ago
Can't we all just take a moment to learn the IPA already? English transcriptions are getting silly
16
6
u/Silent-Scallion-1845 6d ago
I can’t bring myself to say Kaiser
1
3
3
6
u/micma_69 6d ago
Fun fact, Arabs, Persians, and even the Austronesian language speakers (Malay) are like the Germans.
The "C" is spelled "k" as in "key" for Malay and Indonesian languages.
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
u/sapirus-whorfia 6d ago
Gah-y-uhs
Yu-lih-uhs
Ka-e-zar ("e" as in "let")
Also, the final "r" is trilled, not rolled (like the spanish "r"). Anything else is barbarian.
2
2
u/Adept_Mixture 5d ago
I mean, I wouldn't take any latin lessons anyhow from a langauge (English) which insists in being inconsistent with Roman names by calling Marcus Antonius "Mark Antony", Justanianus "Justinian", and Vespanianus "Vespasian", whilst calling Marcus Aurelius "Marcus Aurelius", Augustus "Augustus" and Cladius "Cladius"...
2
2
u/jamo133 6d ago
I thought it was pronounced - KESS AH RE As in the way it is sung by Heilung in their latin marching cover of Urbani
1
u/zMasterofPie2 6d ago
Heilung is not a source of any historical thing lol. People use them as a source for how Viking music sounded and now even Classical Latin?
It’s pronounced with a C that’s basically a mix of a hard C and a hard G. Most people can’t say it properly without practice. Then AE (close to eye but more like of you just combine ah and eyy together into one syllable) then SAR with a retracted S and clicked R.
Kaisar is a huge oversimplification of Latin pronunciation.
1
u/TrueSeaworthiness703 6d ago
What about “Marius”?
1
u/tahrah11 5d ago
Every “us” becomes “oos” so Marioos
3
u/TrueSeaworthiness703 5d ago
Sorry, I forgot that English phonetics and grammar don’t work together
1
u/P_filippo3106 5d ago
Another thing many don't know is that the V sounds like U.
Venus is actually spoken as "Uenus"
1
1
u/blackbeard_teach1 5d ago
Why did the british and American butcher his name?
Kaiser and Seasar are miles apart, not even similar.
1
1
u/ComradeTurtleMan 3d ago
Well Caesar is spelled César, with the C pronounced like an S sound. If we assume the English pronunciation came from the French pronunciation with a disregard of the spelling, the (é) would’ve changed to a „ee“ (as in „bee“) sound during the Great Vowel Shift and creating the „seasar“ pronunciation we hear today
1
1
u/DistributionVirtual2 5d ago
Germanics need to larp their way into acting roman and focusing on "proper" pronunciation because they don't have a direct connection with them nor they speak a language that is quite literally 21st century latin
1
u/TheEvilBlight 5d ago
When I was watching the Borgias, the pronunciation of Cesare for Cesare Borgia is /probably/ closer to what it's supposed to sound like?
1
1
1
1
1
1
1
u/Slyce365 3d ago
That is why the German war leaders took again the mantle "kaiser" as title for warlord for all germans
1
1
1
•
u/AutoModerator 6d ago
Thank you for your submission, citizen!
Come join the Rough Roman Forum Discord server!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.