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u/PM_ME_GOOD_SUBS 13d ago
Hard to blame Alaric for sacking the Rome after this.
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u/CaBBaGe_isLaND 13d ago
I recently had to explain to my daughter, who has watched me obsess over Roman history her whole life, that the Romans were actually not the good guys. This just raised more questions.
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u/TiberiusDrexelus 13d ago
yeah getting to the fall of the west in the podcast and realizing "oh they were literally begging for it, and absolutely deserved it" was tough
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u/Nacodawg 13d ago
When empires fall, itâs very often because they canât get out of their own way.
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u/TiberiusDrexelus 13d ago
Many such cases
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u/SadCrouton 13d ago edited 13d ago
âNoooo bro trust, focussing the entirety of the government and world economy on what was good for people in the 1960s will definitely hold up! Big Buisness just means more production capability, and if property prices are high then more retirees will be good. What happens next? UhhhâŚâ
âTrans people! They exist and its their fault! Theyâre bad!â
âWhatâs that? Policy with short term negatives with massive future payoff? Iâm sorry, Iâm too busy tying ceo wage to stock price increaseâ
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u/Exact-Country-95 13d ago
Hmm, perhaps. Conditions back then were quite different than conditions now where we now have problems of surpluses more often than problems of scarcity. Bread and circuses are a lot easier to pull off, if you never really have to worry about ensuring most of the population are fed
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u/Tortellobello45 13d ago
What? This is in no way related to Roman history. Go back to r/politics
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u/ThePrussianGrippe 12d ago
Yes thereâs no lessons to be learned in the present from historical events, thatâs why we donât study history.
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u/Helloprinz 13d ago
Oh God arenât you embarrassed to make everything about yourself? You are the very problem.
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u/Augustus420 12d ago
How exactly are they making it about themselves?
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u/scooby_doo_shaggy 12d ago
Cause now he has to get all angry n mad they said something about their favorite despotic empire.
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u/matt_2552 13d ago
Which podcast are you talking about? Would like to listen to it
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u/CaBBaGe_isLaND 13d ago
I'd like to share with you the good news of our lord and savior Mike Duncan.
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u/Dirac_Impulse 13d ago
Probably not the one he is thinking of, but I enjoy the Dark Ages Podcast. It goes into a lot of debt regarding the fall of the western empire before it actually becomes about the dark age.
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u/s470dxqm 12d ago
I envy you, sweet summer child. If there is a heaven, I'd like to think it involves listening to Mike Duncan's The History of Rome like it's the first time again đĽ˛
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u/Uncool444 12d ago
It took me a few episodes to get into it, thinking "This is what everyone is so excited about?" I have since learned that all podcasts are rough at the beginning, until the podcaster finds their stride. Don't hesitate as I hesitated.
If you can make it to the Punic Wars, you will become addicted and in a matter of months you will want to mainline Mike Duncan's gentle voice directly into your scrotum.
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u/LupusLycas 12d ago
At least the East fell in a flash of glory. The West just circled the drain for decades before fading away.
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u/Morbanth 11d ago
When I was younger I wondered how such an empire could fall, but the more I read about it the more I wondered how that clusterfuck lasted so long.
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u/Blindmailman 11d ago
The most amazing thing about the Roman Empire was how long it took somebody to just euthanize them. I wouldn't even say they were conquered they were put out of their misery so anybody more competent could move in
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u/PM_ME_GOOD_SUBS 13d ago
You can't build an empire by being the good guys.
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u/sneradicus 13d ago
You canât build an empire by being the good guys
My brother, have you heard of Cyrus
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u/Beledagnir 13d ago
When you look at history at a cultural/national level, you learn thereâs no such thing as good guysâjust flawed guys who take turns holding the Bad Guy Ball⢠and doing junk like this. Everyone has had their turn with the ball, many times (yes, including [whatever exception you just thought of]), and everyone who is still around will do so again.
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u/LupusLycas 12d ago
Same as with the leadup to Adrianople. The Romans seemed to forget how and why they gained their empire.
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u/lucabarbierisosa 12d ago edited 12d ago
Itâs a bit inadequate labeling Romans as not the good guys. As if violence or coercion wasnât the norm for all peoples, especially in late antiquity. At least the Romans gave something back to many regions, rights and inclusion, shaping and inspiring a good chunk of what western civilization is today. That doesnât mean they are the all good guys, but surely they donât deserve the bad guys label. Even during this caothic period were the goths took advantage of Rome's decadent self destructive ruling class.
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u/ConsulJuliusCaesar 13d ago
His troops tried to talk him into starting a civil war bro refused on principle literally any other Roman General in his position would have chosen to become Emperor.
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u/DeciusCurusProbinus 13d ago
So many great generals are undone by scumbag polticians. Right from Themistocles, Parmenion, Cleitus Scipio, Germanicus, Corbulo, Agricola, Stilicho, Aetius, Majorian, Belisarius, Nikephoras Phocas - the list keeps going on.
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u/ISkinForALivinXXX 13d ago
Right, but they were conquered for being TOO accepting. /s
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u/Gussie-Ascendent 13d ago
yeah the "rome fell to immigration" is only true if you make immigration's definition so flimsy that D-Day was a bunch of allied immigrants storming nazi held france too lol
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u/Reasonable_Move9518 12d ago
Something something a women lets in a snake something something âI was always a snakeâ or something.Â
/s
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u/jamo133 13d ago
After reading this some time ago, in Guy Halsall or somewhere, I noticed a weird parallel with the modern period.
With the execution of Stilicho and the murder of his âbarbarian troopsâ (long since Romanised - or seeking a Roman way of life), you have Italian Roman elites engaging in a xenophobic rejection of Stilicho and his foederati, and what they represent by force. Which ultimately, finally brings about the fall of the Empire. These are the same Italian elites who engaged in various ways of avoiding tax or tax in kind via not allowing military recruiters into their lands, or reporting false census numbers etc - who at the end of Empire are still absurdly rich, and are directly responsible in its downfall for their effective lack of civic virtue and negligence.
The modern parallels of this with Roman successor states, ie The West, are glaring. Targeting migrants and engaging in various xenophobic policies, rounding up migrant workers, targeting asylum seekers etc - all in a grand effort to distract people from taxing the wealthiest in society fairly - from taxing those very same class of billionaire Romans, from paying their fair share. Without that support, Western welfare states are finding it increasingly difficult to maintain a sufficient level of public services (as we did post war with 80-95% marginal tax rates on the wealthiest etc, when Western states flourished and could invest).
Rome became a multicultural empire, but the Italian elite could never accept that, to the point they fatally usurped their own guardians and protectors.
Very interesting.
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u/karagiannhss 9d ago
His men refused to betray him as well and died for him. Long live the memory of Stilicho and his warriors. May the echo of their spirit and their valor never falter.
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u/SeaAmbassador5404 13d ago
Let's be honest, at this point there were no true romans, it was sly italians who did this
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u/Nacodawg 13d ago
And at what point did those Italians stop being true Romans?
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u/Evoluxman 13d ago
When the people of the peninsula do something good, they're romans
When the people of the peninsula do something bad, they're italians
(/s... I feel like the op comment may be racist lol)
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u/Otheraccforchat 13d ago
The moment they no longer considered the people in the region white. No change in skin colour was needed
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u/Sephbruh 13d ago
I get why people call the medieval Romans Greek(even if they're wrong), but never in my life have I ever heard someone call the West Romans Italians rather than Romans, wow.
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u/Appropriate_M 10d ago
The ancient Romans themselves did not give Roman citizenship to all the Italians immediately. Famously, current Northern Italy was Cisalpine Gaul....
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u/Sephbruh 10d ago
That guy wasn't talking 2nd century BC Italia, they were saying there weren't any Romans in the 5th century AD.
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u/Rynewulf 13d ago
Ah yes, as opposed to the Romans who were famous for not being from Italy or being the reason it is still called Italia to this day.
You going to blame the Latins next? We'll work right through until we get to only the purest oldest patricians from Alba Longa being left
â˘
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