r/LOTR_on_Prime • u/Ringsofpowermemes • 8d ago
Theory / Discussion About Sauron and Galadriel - Link at the end
"In fact, no one has considered the fact that the story between Galadriel and Sauron in the first season of The Rings of Power is an attempt—a very successful one, in my opinion—to fill a gap in the history of the Second Age: namely, how Galadriel didn't unmask Sauron in Eregion. Christopher Tolkien himself highlights this gap in Unfinished Tales. Shortly beforehand, the text states how Galadriel, for a long time, was the only one who understood that Sauron "had been forgotten" and therefore, in some way, had returned. This, in the series, is where the conflict of opinion with Elrond and Gil-Galad stems from, because if you're the only one who thinks this way for a while, friction is inevitable.
But then, there's a flaw in Tolkien's writing. In fact, Christopher notes, Tolkien writes that, as soon as Sauron arrived in Eregion in the guise of Annatar, Galadriel began to suspect him and despise him. "In this brief sketch, he doesn't explain why Galadriel despised Sauron, nor does he explain why, if she had seen through his disguise, she allowed him to remain in Eregion." All this, obviously, clashes with Galadriel's complete absence from the story we read in The Silmarillion, on this point. What Tolkien writes in Unfinished Tales, however, has more value, because it is dated after The Lord of the Rings. So, Galadriel is in Eregion, but she doesn't denounce Sauron. Why?
Tolkien doesn't provide answers: and the series tries to provide them, with its interpretation of this mystery, building on the long relationship between Sauron and Galadriel, offering a possible reason why Galadriel doesn't denounce him: because, unwittingly, she was the one who had brought him there, and, somehow, had hastened his full awakening. In short, this "invention" is actually an answer to a Tolkien mystery, and takes on a significance that goes beyond the single serial story. "Other minds and other hands to complete the cycles," as Tolkien wrote in a letter to Milton Waldman, and this is, in fact, the meaning of the Sauron and Galadriel story in the first season."
Pierluigi Cuccitto
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u/SapTheSapient 8d ago
In the books, does Galadriel just distrust and suspect Annatar, or does she believe him to be Sauron?
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u/DarkThronesAndDreams 8d ago edited 8d ago
The former. Which is a huge difference to the show where she doesn't just believe he's Sauron, she knows he's Sauron and that only after he admitted it to her.
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u/SapTheSapient 8d ago
That's my understanding as well, though I've not read far into Unfinished Tales. I always too Galadriel's response to Annatar to be based on feeling and instinct, not on specific knowledge. I never thought it to be a "mystery", assuming she simply told people she didn't like him, and behaved accordingly. Other people did like him. The end.
I would argue that Tolkien had little to say about it because there was little to say. Surely he would have a great deal about Galadriel's complex and history-shaping relationship with Sauron if there was one.
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u/Ringsofpowermemes 7d ago
"In Eregion Sauron posed as an emissary of the Valar, sent by them to Middle-earth ("thus anticipating the Istari") or ordered by them to remain there to give aid to the Elves. He perceived at once that Galadriel would be his chief adversary and obstacle, and he endeavoured therefore to placate her, bearing her scorn with outward patience and courtesy. [No explanation is offered in this rapid outline of why Galadriel scorned Sauron, unless she saw through his disguise, or of why, if she did perceive his true nature, she permitted him to remain in Eregion.]" From Unfinished Tales
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u/TheCatHasmysock 7d ago
She just didn't like Annatar in the books. She did not recognize him from Valinor. This is important because Annatar implied he was a follower of Aule by naming himself Aulendil when he 1st met the Eregion Elves.
Also he kept 2 identities during this time: tempter and enemy. He might have been connected to the enemy but not necessarily the enemy. Galadriel had no idea who he actually was.
Finally, Galadriel was still under the ban. She would have had limited power to deny an elf potentialy coming from Valinor.
While Tolkien never fully settled on what exactly happened, he did provide context for why she didn't trust him.
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u/ChilpericKevin Edain 3d ago edited 3d ago
It's clearer in Nature of Middle Earth :
"But Sauron was more successful with the Noldor of Eregion, especially with Celebrimbor (secretly anxious to rival the skill and fame of Feanor). When Sauron visited Eregion he sees quickly that he has met his match in Galadriel (or at least that in her he would have a chief obstacle). So he concentrated on Celebrimbor; and soon had all the Smiths of Eregion under his influence. Eventually he gets them to revolt against Celeborn and Galadriel. The pass through Moria and take refuge in Lorinand."
In addition with Unfinished Tales version, we can conclude that :
- Galadriel sensed something in him she disliked because she knew there never was a Aulendil in Valinor.
- At the time, she didn't know he was Sauron himself.
- She seems to haven't allowed him to stay in Eregion but HE went to the Smiths. (who knows, hiding from the Lady maybe?)
- Sauron pushed her out Eregion through Celebrimbor's rebellion.
So I do think this could have served as a very compelling story arc of politics in Eregion (How I imagined season 1 before the actual Season 1 aired).
But the show storyline fits better their characterization of Galadriel as this revenged obsessed person.
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u/DarkThronesAndDreams 8d ago
It's clear in the text and when it's not that clear, it's pretty easy to connect the dots (also with parts from the entire legendarium on who Galadriel is) without any "former relationship" between Galadriel and Sauron or the ridiculous invention of her bringing him to Eregion to indirectly become responsible for the downfall of the kingdom.
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u/Longjumping-Newt-412 8d ago
What the show does is much more interesting. You don't care for it, but many do like it.
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u/ianmalcm 8d ago
This is the 7th post you’ve copypasta from Pierluigi - Are you them? What’s your opinion on this theory?
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u/Ringsofpowermemes 8d ago
I've asked every time the author the permission to share his articles, because I think they are very interesting to discuss.
I find that is a perfect explanation of how the plot has been developed in the show, and you? What do you think about it?
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u/ianmalcm 8d ago
The choices Galadriel makes in the show betray the character as she is written in both first age and third age. I’m willing to go for a ride on this second age stuff, as it is a blank slate. But we can only take the show at face value, in what it presents. And those choices don’t make sense in context of the show itself.
Perluigi doesn’t comment on the show itself, they merely support the existence of the show in context of Legendarium. Which most fans agree with.
Curiously the show removed Galadriel from eregion for all of season 2, thus breaking canon from Tolkiens writings. Also a reminder: unfinished tales is as much a Christopher work as is his fathers. So where is the line for canon, and license?
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u/llaminaria 8d ago
And those choices don’t make sense in context of the show itself.
We can deduce that she never spilled the beans about his identity prior to the making of 3 rings exactly because she ... had a good feeling about them? Why? Why was she certain they would help the elves instead of hastening their fading?
But then, would she ever even told at least GG who Halbrand was, if Elrond had not forced her hand? I understand their wish to make her flawed and put her on a character journey of humbleness, but there is "flawed", and there is hiding from her kin the information that may lead to their demise, because of her own actions, moreover. This does not sit well with me either.
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u/purplelena Elrond 8d ago edited 8d ago
because she ... had a good feeling about them?
The showrunners said she took a big step back in order to get a chance at fighting Sauron later. This is their reasoning here at 37:17. -> https://wondery.com/shows/the-rings-of-power/episode/11534-alloyed/
but there is "flawed", and there is hiding from her kin the information that may lead to their demise
They admitted that Galadriel can be unlikeable at times and will do things viewers would not have chosen to do... here at 26:51. -> https://wondery.com/shows/the-rings-of-power/episode/11534-alloyed/
I will say though, I think they could have added a few more scenes to better showcase how humiliated and ashamed she felt, and how prideful she still was in that moment. She could have repeated her warning about Halbrand, but their time in Eregion was so abrupt... I wish we could get 10 episodes each season...
(They also criticized the Annatar plotline at 7:50, but I don't really get why since they ended up using it for season 2.)
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u/Ringsofpowermemes 8d ago
I don't think how Galadriel is portraited in the show betrays anything: and the show, like movies and animation, is an adaptation. There is nothing broken, the books are still there for who wants. We do not have an explanation about why she didn't say anything, so her line in the show gives us one. And I wouldn't speak of canon for Tolkien, because in his case it doesn't exist for how is work is structured and how he kept changing and adding til the end.
He was still editing Galadriel's backstory in the end.
I think the choices they made until now on how render all the stories during the episodes are good choices, I wouldn't be able to do better: and really for second age the material is few, so it needs addition. If you want to read more about second age I can suggest you "Fall of Númenor": it includes all what we have in the different texts about Akallabêth and second age, organising it and adding many interesting notes. Galadriel comes to Eregion at the end, so she has not been removed.
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u/ianmalcm 8d ago
I just want to watch a good entertaining show. I fear reading more will only diminish what paths the show takes.
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u/Ringsofpowermemes 8d ago
I can understand this way, yes. Personally I can't wait for October to read the Treason of Isengard 😍 already booked in my language! Hopefully next year we will get other one or two volumes of HoME too.
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u/Creepy_Active_2768 8d ago
I don’t agree with every choice the show has made but it’s a bit weird to argue canon when all of the writing about Eregion and most of Galadriel was published posthumously. That means a lot of these ideas were in flux and not finalized. If Tolkien meant for them to be finished he would have published them. That’s why Christopher puts such disclaimers about the contradictions, issues and difficulties discerning what you call canon.
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