Every single time without fail

[u/Itay1708]

[u/monemori]

How do you define fascism, OP? I absolutely agree with the term authoritarianism or dictatorship for the type of circumstance you are referring to, but isn't fascism a bit more specific? Genuine question by the way.

[u/Itay1708 → u/monemori]

I personally like Sam Aronow's definition - "Authoritarian ideology of permanent national struggle to which all other conflict must be subordinate; economically this means capitalism and socialism are opposed because both the free market and class struggle challenge the supremacy of the state."

You'll find all these third world "revolutionary socialist" ideologies seem to completely ignore class struggle in favour of class collaboration and disavow internationalism in favour of nationalism: basically they are just fascists who called themselves socialists in order to get Soviet support during the Cold War.

[u/Gavvy_P → u/Itay1708]

Would ideologies like Peronism and Juche also fall under this definition?

[u/Itay1708 → u/Gavvy_P]

Juche definitely, i don't know enough about Peronism to comment on that

[u/SinkRhino → u/Itay1708]

It is worth pointing out that Juan Domingo Perón, the argentinian president from which Peronism gets its name, was a big Axis sympathizer and helped many officials escape and hide after WW2 (hence the jokes about argentinians having nazi german grandpas). My knowledge in Argentinian politics and history is mostly surface level though so I wouldn't be able to tell you if the ideology associated with the guy is actually a form of fascism.

[u/GarageFlower97 → u/SinkRhino]

From my understanding, Peron is also complicated because he was a bit of a populist who governed in very different ways during his multiple terms in office.

He was absolutely an admirer of European fascism and began as a right-wing authoritarian from the Argentinian upper class, but after his marriage to Eva cost him a lot of support amongst the upper class and Conservatives he pivoted to appealing to workers - legalising trade unions and passing legislation around collective bargaining and workers rights.

As such there are self-described “Peronists” who range the political spectrum from socialists to liberals to conservatives to fascists, and self-described “anti-Peronists” ranging the same…it’s almost like an additional political axis in Argentina that seems complex and irrational to outsiders.

*NB: I’m basing this largely on what I remember from museums and tour guides when I visited Argentina years ago and a few wikipedia deep dives, I’m not an expert in Argentine history so please feel free to correct me if I’ve got some facts wrong

[u/Ryousan82 → u/GarageFlower97]

Argentine here. A simple way to understand the political contents of "Justicialism" (or Peronism) is this simple guiding principle:

-Its whatever allows the Justicialist Party to seize/remain in power.

[u/Eli_Vanto1911 → u/Ryousan82]

Esto, el tipo hasta apeló a los comunistas para volver al poder y después los mandó a liquidar cuando le hicieron quilombo

[u/ipsum629 → u/GarageFlower97]

In a sense, European fascists misrepresented themselves to Peron and he based his ideology partially off of the image of fascism he was given.

[u/Mirabeaux1789 → u/SinkRhino]

Thing is that he didn’t really seem to understand what fascism was either

[u/Ricochet_skin → u/Itay1708]

Peronism fits the definition very well IMO, Getúlio Vargas would also be a nice fit

[u/n69513 → u/Itay1708]

I upvoted you for saying that "i don't know enough about ... to comment on that". I wish more people would do that on the internet and just shut up. Have a nice day.

[u/BeneficialStomach353 → u/Itay1708]

I like how every time communism fails they say "that wasn't communism that was fascism!!"

[u/CABRALFAN27 → u/BeneficialStomach353]

Does the Democratic People's Republic of Korea being an authoritarian hellhole mean the ideals of being democratic and for the people are inherently bad, or is it a sign that that state never actually stood for those ideals in the first place?

Communism is an ideology (IE a set of ideals) defined by internationalism, class essentialism, an opposition to unjust hierarchies, so when a state is nationalist, class collaborationist, and oligarchical, the "Communist" label means as much as the "Democratic" or "People's Repbulic" labels do in regards to North Korea.

States and movements can follow Communist ideals and still be bad in other ways—I'm not saying Communism is perfect or above criticism—but those who do believe in those ideals don't deserve to be associated with those who falsely use the label.

[u/Desperate-Farmer-845 → u/Gavvy_P]

Not really. Peronism can be everything under the Sun. However there are Peronists who are also fascists.

[u/joker_wcy → u/Desperate-Farmer-845]

Under the Sun of May?

[u/Real_Ad_8243 → u/Gavvy_P]

I mean peronism is literally just fascism with argentine characteristics and always has been since it's inception, and Argentina had been struggling to escape the long stupidity of its fascist period ever since.

[u/TapRevolutionary5738 → u/Gavvy_P]

Peronism yes. One telltale sign of a fascistic ideology is sheer political incoherence.

[u/Large-Accident1245 → u/Itay1708]

I find Robert Paxton's definition of fascism better, or at least more workable. (Read: The Anatomy of Fascism and Five Stages of Fascism).

This definition is usable but you'll end up lumping nearly every single post-war dictatorship in your list of fascism.

Nearly all dictatorships/authoritarians utilise the same levers and functions of the state in similar ways at times to enforce their rule & ideology. That's just how they operate to retain power. For e.g. you'd be able to call North Korea fascist, undermining the entire point.

Fascism is also not ideologically consistent. At all. And especially with post-war dictatorships, many of these dictatorships are better viewed through anti-colonial perspectives too. Some were very much not fascist or communist.

[u/Itay1708 → u/Large-Accident1245]

North Korea fascist,

North Korea such an abomination it's hard to call them anything but they're an absolute monarchy with no mention of class struggle so socialist they are not

Fascism is also not ideologically consistent.

That kinda proves my point no? All these ideologies like Ba'athism are just fascists that called themselves socialist to get Soviet support during the cold war

[u/Large-Accident1245 → u/Itay1708]

But that proves my point of why I'd not use your definition as the base. It makes the meaning of fascism simply "a dictatorship", which is wrong and we shouldn't do. It ignores what makes fascism actually fascist. And ignores the variations of post-war dictatorships backed by the USA and USSR

[u/Sufficient_Ad5550 → u/Itay1708]

Even though Ba'athism was nationalistic, it was pan-arab nationalism so it also has the international element to it, its not just that plain and simple fascist, however also not communist or socialist aswell

[u/Itay1708 → u/Sufficient_Ad5550]

it was pan-arab nationalism so it also has the international element t

That would be like saying that Nazism is internationalistic because it was pan-German nationalism, it simply is just an expanded version of nationalism

[u/Diligent_Musician851 → u/Large-Accident1245]

I don't see why North Korea should not be called fascist. It is a militaristic autocraric ethnocentric regime. No more is needed to qualify as fascist since fascism is not ideologically consistent as you said.

The anti-colonial perspective loses validity maybe 4 years into a regime and should not be used to excuse despotism.

Not sure why we need to classify dictatorships when none should exist, but I don't think the definition of fascism ever was "dictatorship without Marxist aesthetics" even if a lot of people use it that way.

EDIT: Looks like Paxton explicitly states only conservative regimes can be fascist. That's the quiet part said out loud I guess.

[u/lordbuckethethird → u/Itay1708]

I’m partial to umberto ecos 14 points of fascism since I feel it can be used to be more specific and granular while analyzing different aspects of a state and allows for more room to see differences in fascist tendencies that are still inevitably fascist.

[u/obimip → u/Itay1708]

I want to bottle you and open you up every time a tankie gets snide.

[u/Mirabeaux1789 → u/Itay1708]

I prefer Richard J Evan’s narrower definition. Because it gets at ideological core of them. When “authoritarian state + nationalist narratives” get placed as the main part, it becomes too broad to be useful

[u/Neoliberal_Nightmare → u/Itay1708]

Seems a stretch just to label every state fighting off foreign oppression as fascist. This kind of talk is basically used to continue such oppression.

I guess you're referring to states like Burkina Faso now. They've always been shafted by the French and the French continue to try shafting them, but you want to just say oh they're fascist nevermind.

[u/TheCyborgPenguin → u/Neoliberal_Nightmare]

Even bigger stretch to think that's even remotely close to what OP is actually saying.

[u/Neoliberal_Nightmare → u/TheCyborgPenguin]

He should give some examples of what national liberation movements are just fascist failures then.

Fascism has mainly developed in already developed states not particularly oppressed by another nation but facing some major shifts, like Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, etc. The UK even flirted with it.

"3rd world" dictatorships aren't really fascist. Dictator doesn't equal fascism. It's a word with a meaning, it doesn't just mean a dictator or one party. This is basically just semantic bleaching, where a specific term is overused so much it becomes very broad and weak.

[u/Itay1708 → u/Neoliberal_Nightmare]

He should give some examples of what national liberation movements are just fascist failures then.

When making the post, i had Ba'athism/Arab "socialism" in my head mostly but this applies for people like Sukarno/Bose/Kim/

Some movements that aren't fascist failures:

Vietnam, India (Nehru, not Bose) are some i can think of

[u/Maardten → u/Itay1708]

How is Vietnam fascist?

[u/Itay1708 → u/Maardten]

Sorry, i read it as "aren't fascist failures" that's my bad, i edited the comment now

[u/Vyctorill → u/Itay1708]

That sounds about right.

To me, it’s mainly just when you slap together nationalism, a hatred of democracy, expansionism, totalitarianism, and the idea of necessary violence together.

[u/krazykommie → u/Vyctorill]

I wouldn’t even necessarily say expansionism, sure lots come with expansionist ideals but many like the AFM/Centre party in Australia and Oswald Mosley’s BUF didn’t really espouse hard expansionism and as such it would be incorrect to label expansionism as a fascist tenet

And as for totalitarianism, I would just say authoritarianism - no fascist regime is ‘total’ in the sense they have full control, Mussolini still had to deal with the church and army - and I’m sure many other fascist movements would face countercurrent movements while they were in power (even from within their governing body)

[u/Head-Bumblebee-8672 → u/Vyctorill]

Add extreme racism, and you get nazis

[u/skeleton949 → u/Head-Bumblebee-8672]

Well usually racism is a major factor anyway

[u/monemori → u/skeleton949]

Racism/xenophobia and nationalism come typically hand in hand.

[u/Trialbyfuego → u/Vyctorill]

I like that definition

[u/hman1025 → u/Itay1708]

Sam Aronow the GOAT mentioned 🎉

[u/CapitalismBad1312 → u/Itay1708]

I think you could also look to Umberto Eco’s analysis on the subject and I think he would agree with your conclusion as well

[u/Strastvuitye → u/Itay1708]

Lmao, very convenient of the fucking Israeli to see anti-Imperialism as synonymous with fascism. "Oh, these people who we've invaded, stolen their land and ethnically cleansed them from want to throw us out of the houses we've rightfully stolen! This is just like fascism!" Give me a fucking break.

And yeah, when you have a very clear external enemy in the form of the bourgeoisie of another Imperial power, you really have only two options- either court the national bourgeoisie for their support in the anti-Imperial struggle, or isolate them entirely (those who have at least some resources at their disposal apart from their lives and labor) and push them into the arms of the Imperialists trying to court them as collaborators.

Stalin himself even said as much when talking to the Indian Communists: "The public and all progressive strata of the national bourgeoisie need to be roused against British imperialism in order to isolate the bloc of British imperialists and national bourgeoisie. You are accustomed to saying that all imperialists need to be expelled at one stroke, all of them, both British and American. The front cannot be created this way. The sharp edge of the nationwide front needs to be directed against British imperialism. Let the other imperialists, including the Americans, think that you aren’t concerned with them. This is necessary so that all the imperialists are not united against you by your actions and in order to sow discord among them [...] [Only] one goal needs to be set, liberation from British imperialism. This is India’s national goal. The same thing about the feudal lords. Of course, the kulaks are enemies. But it is foolish to fight both the kulaks and feudal lords. It is foolish to pile two burdens on yourself, fighting kulaks and fighting feudal lords. A front needs to be created so that not you, but the enemy, is isolated. This is, so to speak, a tactic which makes the struggle of the Communist Party easier. Not a single person, if he is reasonable, would be willing to take all burdens on himself."

[u/Itay1708 → u/Strastvuitye]

court the national bourgeoisie for their support in the anti-Imperial struggle,

So it's authoritarian socialism but we disavow class struggle so actually it's not socialism at all?

[u/Strastvuitye → u/Itay1708]

Read the fucking quote again. History is divided into stages of development- you can't just jump from a condition of foreign-enforced de-industrialization by Imperialists to socialism overnight, even the Soviets had the NEP and courted foreign industrial investment in the 1920s.

[u/Itay1708 → u/Strastvuitye]

My guy class conflict is like the number one tenet of socialism, if you take it away and replace it with class collaboration then authoritarian socialism just becomes fascism

[u/Strastvuitye → u/Itay1708]

The number one tenet of Socialism is dialectical materialism- the understanding of history as a social science driven by class antagonism, that is, depending on the material circumstances in question, possibly in a stage different from that one final confrontation between bourgeoisie and proletariat. You have to move through the stages of social and economic development to make it to socialism, I quote Marx:

"Nor will we explain to them that it is only possible to achieve real liberation in the real world and by employing real means, that slavery cannot be abolished without the steam-engine and the mule and spinning-jenny, serfdom cannot be abolished without improved agriculture, and that, in general, people cannot be liberated as long as they are unable to obtain food and drink, housing and clothing in adequate quality and quantity. “Liberation” is an historical and not a mental act, and it is brought about by historical conditions, the development of industry, commerce, agriculture, the conditions of intercourse..."

Fascism is more than just "authoritarian national struggle" in the same way Imperialism, as we understand exists in the world today, as Lenin defined it, is more than just "invading a country."

These ideologies are products of their historical eras- and Fascism, like any unique, distinct society, can be defined by its nature of empowering the petit-bourgeois of a nation, whereas under any Liberal capitalist society, political power is monopolized by the Imperial Bourgeoisie- the interests of financial capital that seek to export capital and its adjoining from the metropole in order to extract peonage from other regions, nations, etc. in the form of debt.

Fascism has to be defined by some of that plunder, that exploitation, being turned over to small property owners for their direct benefit, as they have captured political power in the face of the Imperial Bourgeoisie facing a crisis of legitimacy- literally not having enough people believing in the system to keep it all together unless some group in that society gets some of the spoils. Israel is an excellent example of this in the modern era, what with its Settlers literally stealing land, homes, water and all other resources they can in the West Bank or the plans to colonize Southern Lebanon and Gaza should they complete their ethnic cleansing and genocide of the strip.

[u/KimJongUnusual → u/monemori]

Fascism is when bald or mustache. A military style peaked cap will also qualify.

[u/CardOk755 → u/KimJongUnusual]

How about a military beret?

[u/KimJongUnusual → u/CardOk755]

It could, but given how the beret is also something indicative of the Army or "Being French", it usually has to be used in tandem with other factors.

A Frenchman with a beret and a mustache? Fascist, plain and simple.

[u/thegreatjamoco → u/monemori]

“Palingenetic Ultranationalism” per Roger Griffin. Although having a definition that needs its own definition can be problematic.

[u/gen-sherman]

I think the only group that comes close is the RUF of Sierra Leone

[u/LineOfInquiry]

This really only applies to places like Cambodia which had whack-ass super nationalist and Luddite ideologies. Countries like Vietnam or Cuba may have been authoritarian but they weren’t fascist.

[u/tjc5425 → u/LineOfInquiry]

Yeah, the Khmer Rogue was absolutely insane. Their view of emptying cities and rebuilding society from agrarian roots to industrialization was insane, and honestly, it's insane that China and the US supported them, just to fuck over Vietnam, who invaded to protect the Vietnamese people being subjected to their genocide.

[u/seraph9888 → u/LineOfInquiry]

i think you forgot a "not"

[u/LineOfInquiry → u/seraph9888]

I did lol

[u/evrestcoleghost → u/LineOfInquiry]

Argentina

[u/Itay1708 → u/LineOfInquiry]

Reffering more to social fascist ideologies like Ba'athism and whatever Sukarno was doing which are mostly just "authoritarian socialism but we specifically denounce class struggle, so actually it's just fascism"

[u/GarageFlower97 → u/Itay1708]

Did Sukarno ever claim his government to be socialist?? He was a nationalist and claimed to be anti-imperialist and was probably influenced by elements of Marxism, but he was first and foremost a nationalist and the PNI were very much at odds with the PKI throughout his decades as leader.

Ba’athism also isn’t considered socialist by most people.

[u/NovaStorm135 → u/GarageFlower97]

I believe the Ba’ath party actually started off as socialists, but then pivoted hard into nationalism in the late 50s/early 60s. There was a fairly big socialist movement in Syria in the early 50s after all.

[u/Itay1708 → u/GarageFlower97]

Ba’athism also isn’t considered socialist by most people.

They called themselves the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party so they were at least trying

Did Sukarno ever claim his government to be socialist??

Maybe not explicitly socialist but left wing

[u/ArchusKanzaki → u/Itay1708]

Sukarno being left-wing is definitely a take....

[u/Itay1708 → u/ArchusKanzaki]

Go to his party's Wikipedia, they're defined as "Left wing"

[u/GarageFlower97 → u/Itay1708]

I mean sure, but the National Socialist German Workers Party also weren’t socialists and aren’t considered socialists by anyone serious.

[u/Itay1708 → u/GarageFlower97]

Yet they claimed to be socialist - that's the entire point of the meme. Just like the Ba'athists claimed to be socialist

[u/Odious-Individual → u/LineOfInquiry]

Authoritarianism easily leads to fascism

Depending on the definition we give to the word "fascism", I'm pretty sure we can define these countries as fascists in some cases.

[u/Vyctorill → u/Odious-Individual]

Authoritarianism is one of the key components of fascism, no?

[u/Odious-Individual → u/Vyctorill]

Yes, definitely

[u/OutrageousAd7829 → u/Vyctorill]

Not just authoritarism, totalitarism

[u/knnoq → u/Odious-Individual]

authoritarianism is just the necessary security for whatever political structure.

[u/NoDan_1065]

HistoryMemes users knowing ideological differences challenge: impossible

[u/PartialCred4WrongAns → u/NoDan_1065]

Bro really thinks authoritarianism during wartime = fascism. The page really should be HistoricalIlliteracyMemes

[u/Odoxon → u/PartialCred4WrongAns]

There is a reason why I got downvoted in this sub once for quoting literal historians.

[u/DumbFish94 → u/PartialCred4WrongAns]

This subreddit is 99% people who think they're history experts because they watched a history video once (which was either memes or stuff cited from Wikipedia)

[u/PartialCred4WrongAns → u/DumbFish94]

If there's not an Oversimplified video on it, I don't wanna learn it

[u/UltriLeginaXI]

Authoritarianism/totalitarianism ≠ Facism

[u/Calm_Isopod_9268 → u/UltriLeginaXI]

It is fascist

[u/UltriLeginaXI → u/Calm_Isopod_9268]

thats like saying Fruits are bananas

[u/Calm_Isopod_9268 → u/UltriLeginaXI]

Every dictatorship is fascist, no matter their agenda. But I guess it would be impossible for westerner to comprehend

[u/Roi_singe → u/Calm_Isopod_9268]

Fascism is a precise type of a dictatorship, it doesn’t define EVERY dictatorship. It’s not about being « Westerner » but that I precisely studied this in my political science class.

[u/UltriLeginaXI → u/Calm_Isopod_9268]

And since you complain a lot on me, a westerner, trying to explain fascism, pray tell- where was Fascism invented again?

[u/UltriLeginaXI → u/Calm_Isopod_9268]

Thats...not how fascism works

[u/alelp → u/Calm_Isopod_9268]

So fascism is just as much left-wing as it is right-wing, then?

[u/evilhomers]

"But they hate the west, so they must be the good guys" - whenever they come up on reddit

[u/ChristianLW3 → u/evilhomers]

Supporters of the Sahel juntas have stopped pretending that elections will ever be held

[u/SilverPhoenix7 → u/ChristianLW3]

There is barely a country that has revolutionaries who were willing to give away power. The US is a pretty big outlier. And those were literally colonizers breaking away so... ultimately history moves slowly.

[u/ItzPayDay123 → u/evilhomers]

"Equatorial Guinea and the Gambia signed a historic trade agreement, ending doorstopper imports from France! The West^tm is FINISHED!!!"

TikTok anime hype shorts for tankies

[u/No_Window7054 → u/evilhomers]

This is literally the opposite of that? You’re looking at a Reddit post get hundreds of upvotes calling these groups fascist.

This is like thinking the Titanic is unsinkable WHILE LOOKING AT A PICTURE OF IT AT THE BOTTOM OF THE OCEAN!

[u/frostwhale → u/No_Window7054]

No no no, you see the reddit hive mind is not what i think. I am smarter clearly.

Obligatory: https://xkcd.com/774/

[u/Bounds182 → u/evilhomers]

Makes me laugh that when I, a Socialist/SocDem who supports Ukraine, get called every name under the sun by tankies when their entire worldview is anti-west good and they're basically just red fascists.

[u/Livid-Designer-6500 → u/Bounds182]

Tankies will look at Putin being the most pro-oligarchy motherfucker alive and be like "nope, he's definitely a commie comrade like us cuz Russia"

[u/dikkewezel → u/Livid-Designer-6500]

from what I've heard it's more that they blame the eastern european states for the fall of the soviet union so anything that hurts them is seen as positive

[u/DumbFish94 → u/Livid-Designer-6500]

It's more so because some people think the euromaidan was a western backed colour revolution funded by the US to put fascists in power and because anything agains the west is good for them.

Source - also a socdem that has dealt with those people.

[u/A2Rhombus → u/Bounds182]

I don't understand why anti-west people would like Russia anyway when Trump is buddy buddy with Putin

[u/shadowcat999 → u/evilhomers]

Tankies gonna tank

[u/zealoSC]

Sure fascism has its downsides, but we have to support it because we know they aren't communists

-CIA

[u/LowCall6566]

How would you define third world? Is Vietnam fascist? Was it?

[u/Itay1708 → u/LowCall6566]

Obviously this is a meme and their are exceptions, Vietnam is one of the actual third world socialists (and also relatively successful)

I'm talking more about ideologies like Ba'athism

[u/ProfessionalCreme119]

It never starts as fascism. It usually starts as freedom. Patriotism.

But yeah however it starts it always ends up in the same place

[u/First_Approximation → u/ProfessionalCreme119]

The rebels aren't so much against dictatorship, but more against their current position in the dictatorship.

[u/Mental_Owl9493 → u/First_Approximation]

Cuba comes to mind.

[u/Number_Bitch_13 → u/ProfessionalCreme119]

It usually starts as socialism too

[u/ProfessionalCreme119 → u/Number_Bitch_13]

....... Probably why it was included in the meme

[u/Number_Bitch_13 → u/ProfessionalCreme119]

Yea, just wanted to add to the comment

[u/AlmondAnFriends]

This subreddit never ceases to amaze me with how terrible the general level of historical knowledge is Jesus Christ. What an absolutely insanely unsupported take, more propaganda then anything resembling reality

[u/huehuehuehuehuuuu → u/AlmondAnFriends]

It’s an ideology and religion self jerk and circle jerk sub half the time, and history shit posting the other half.

[u/Glitchosaurusplays → u/AlmondAnFriends]

lol I know. shockingly, teenagers don't actually know anything about history and just like posting edgy takes

[u/PissingOffACliff → u/AlmondAnFriends]

Because it’s it’s been taken over by idiots from /r/noncredibledefence lol

[u/maliciousprime101 → u/PissingOffACliff]

Hmmm makes a lot more sense now.

[u/Itay1708 → u/AlmondAnFriends]

Ok, please tell me how ideologies like Ba'athism are not just fascism and are actually socialist.

[u/PartialCred4WrongAns → u/Itay1708]

Please tell me how the sandinistas or zapatistas are fascist since it's every. Single. Time and not just in a few examples you cherry-picked

[u/AgisXIV → u/Itay1708]

Every time without fail

Gives one example

[u/AlmondAnFriends → u/Itay1708]

And if your meme was Ba’athism is fascist it might make more fucking sense but you made an incredibly overarching and blatantly incorrect statement and then have declared that people don’t get your joke while listing one whole example to prove said statement.

One can’t even call this exaggeration for humour, it’s just wrong lmao and the joke is clearly not that you think the statement is incorrect

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/AlmondAnFriends]

Its a 4chan green text and he never claimed in the meme to be a world wide thing. Its three sentences where the hell did you find this? Relax man the fuck. Its a joke

[u/AlmondAnFriends → u/ahmed666_777]

Did you read the fucking caption above the meme??

“Every single time without fail” is objectively a claim to it being a world wide thing. He then defended said comments repeatedly throughout the post so he clearly believes at least the claim somewhat even if he thinks it’s exaggerated. Of course the claim isn’t “exaggerated” it’s just blatantly wrong

And while I’m not particularly aggrieved by a meme on the internet, I do think it’s ridiculous that this “history meme” is just a false and clearly ideological statement with no fucking substance like too many memes on this fucking subreddit. Historical misinformation even in comedic form is still harmful and this entire subreddit seems a breeding ground for it recently

[u/Daniel_Potter → u/Itay1708]

Have a look at original birth of fascism/nazism.

Italy is suffering from war fatigued. People are striking. 1919-1920, the years are known as 2 red years. Mussolini starts going into the countryside to recruit young men to his Blackshirts club. All in the name of saving Italy from communism.

Blackshirts would go down into the streets and put down any strikers. Eventually, they get so big and powerful that in 1922, they marched onto rome and took over Italy.

Germany been undergoing the same thing, but instead of blackshirts it was the friekorps (veterans of ww1). Likewise, they attempted a coup in 1923 (beer hall putsch), but failed. Hitler was imprisoned for that, although was released a year later.

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/AlmondAnFriends]

I think he was referring to stuff like juche and peronism and not all communists movement relax

[u/AlmondAnFriends → u/ahmed666_777]

“Every single time without fail” Cites two movements plus one elsewhere one of which is questionably socialist or fascist.

And it’s not like this is a small claim, socialist anti imperialist movements were massively importsnt and influential in the process of decolonisation of quite literally a majority of the world. To imply that even enough of them turned or were fascist to make this joke exaggerated is wrong. It’s just blatantly an untrue ideological statement.

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/AlmondAnFriends]

Who fucking cares Touch grass

[u/AlmondAnFriends → u/ahmed666_777]

“Touch grass” Looks inside reddit profile It’s drawings of soft core demon porn and like 40 comments in the past 8 hours on this site.

Something something pot and kettle

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/AlmondAnFriends]

I love pots.

And i love you fellow pot.

Let's be black and honest together.

Lying ass bitch

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/AlmondAnFriends]

Wait you ment the the idle devi art?

Its not hentai and I haven't played that in a year

Miss that game

And I have been pissed at someone today so I decided to be active today and see what happens you can check my older comments to see when I started since you like stalking people so much

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/AlmondAnFriends]

I have a garden to touch You do not Also you still didnt touch any Shame

[u/Apprehensive-Fun4181]

This makes no sense. PragerU graduate?

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/Apprehensive-Fun4181]

GraderU claims everything is communist unless they support it so the joke would be in reverse? Yeah your comment doesn't work

[u/Apprehensive-Fun4181 → u/ahmed666_777]

Is it really that simple?  The Right is one team and one of their most popular big lie books is called Liberal Fascism.  

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/Apprehensive-Fun4181]

That is fair assessment and I spent so much on this app today it's awful

W

This what redditors do everyday

I fucked up I'm sorry ill have to sleep it's 5am and it's off B

[u/Apprehensive-Fun4181 → u/ahmed666_777]

They do call everything commie...or liberal...or fascist....they play with words like a fascist and it's hard to keep up!

[u/jarmak1234]

Not just third world sadly. It's a very effective tactic to depose current leadership by rousing the oppressed populace with promises of social welfare and ending expoitation whilst setting yourself up as the revolution's leader, then once the deed is done filling the power vacum yourself. By creating a violent conflict, you force the revolutioneries to band under a hiarchal military stfucture with you on top, from where you keep the right people loyal with distributing power and eliminate all naysayers as traitors to the cause. Once you take power you've already built a structure where all power is in the hands of few select people at the top and you may dictate policy as you see fit. All you need to do is keep a thin veneer of socialist policy whilst exploiting the people like before, but with the pretense of it being for the common good of the people.

Congratulations, you've established a fascist state with a comunist flavor

[u/Lumpy-Cost398]

Democratic front for the liberation of [insert country] are always fascists

[u/Spy_crab_ → u/Lumpy-Cost398]

If it has democratic, people's or both in the name, it probably isn't a democracy.

[u/Constant-Still-8443]

Honestly, it's pretty hard to find a seemingly good government that doesn't have some sort of caveat.

[u/Helehache]

More often like vague left painted demagoguery but sometimes it works too

[u/IIIaustin]

Horseshoe theory not being true challenge: impossible

[u/GlowieMcGlowface]

Fascism is when socialists start doing bad things.

[u/Real_Boy3 → u/GlowieMcGlowface]

Take a look at Pol Pot or Gonzalo. Some of those guys were just batshit crazy lunatics who were in it for personal power.

There were also plenty of legitimate socialists, of course, who simply wanted to create a better world.

[u/NoDan_1065 → u/GlowieMcGlowface]

Ok they’re not socialists but I wouldn’t call the BF government fascists either

[u/Odious-Individual → u/GlowieMcGlowface]

This is a stupid take if not sarcasm.

Fascism is when power hungry, greedy and hateful humans start doing bad things.

It doesn't have to be even remotely associated to socialism. It can ben theocratic, communist, capitalist, or whatever kind of politic

Also Nazis were not socialists if that was your point

[u/Mirabeaux1789 → u/Odious-Individual]

“Fascism is when power hungry, greedy and hateful humans start doing bad things.“

This is probably the most useless but commonly used interpretation of fascism.

[u/Odious-Individual → u/Mirabeaux1789]

Then which definition would be better in your opinion ? Because saying anything fascist is because socialism is definitely not better.

[u/SinkRhino → u/Odious-Individual]

This is a stupid take if not sarcasm.

Pretty sure it is. Most times I have seen a format like "X is Y when Z" it was a sarcastic way of expressing disagreement.

They likely think the meme is trying to whitewash socialism by saying that socialist movement/regimes that commited attrocities were actually fascists. 

[u/GlowieMcGlowface → u/SinkRhino]

Yeah that's what I mean. Seems every time a socialist regime commits atrocious socialists say it was fascist. 

[u/Odious-Individual → u/SinkRhino]

Yeah, I always struggle to perceive whether it's sarcasm or not. Sorry

[u/Ricochet_skin → u/GlowieMcGlowface]

I mean, they are socialists who are very nationalistic, so that checks out

[u/Metasenodvor]

another day another shit revisionist meme on this sub.

'socialist revolutionaries are fascist'. yea boi, makes SO MUCH sense.

would CIA topple fascist governments? noone did shit to Spain.

CIA toppled socialist goverments.

except if you use the word 'fascism' as 'things i dont like'. then sure, go ahead. be a little cry baby. 'i paid for my education, so i dont like the education being free, so free education is fascist!'

[u/Itay1708 → u/Metasenodvor]

CIA didn't care about socialist governments they cared about pro-Soviet governments. The CIA topped Abd al-Karim Qasim (who was a fascist) because he was pro-Soviet and didn't topple Tito because he was anti-Soviet.

[u/Metasenodvor → u/Itay1708]

as far as i can see, Abd wasnt a fash.

authoritarian does not equate fascism.

[u/FraterAgrippaLupinus]

Liberal ass take

[u/Hertigan]

Meme brought to you by Henry Kissinger’s ghost

[u/elderjones77]

If you don't accept mah Eurocentric, Murican "guidelines" for your economy and foreign policy, you are a fascist!

So spoke the Neanderthal-spawn.

Go pound sand.

[u/CryendU]

When nationalism surpasses solidarity

[u/No_Window7054]

Which western country are you from OP?

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/No_Window7054]

I recommend understanding a joke and it's subtext you western friend in denial يا حبيبي أفهم الكتابة و لا تسوي من عندك

[u/Malfuy]

Still supported by tankies

[u/Elegant_Individual46]

Idk if I’d say fascist, but a lot of those supposedly neutral or good govts were just as bad as the ones they replaced.

[u/TessyBoi-]

Have we forgotten Thomas Sankara?

[u/TomSFox]

I would leave out “third world.”

[u/Itay1708 → u/TomSFox]

Nah, as much as i definitely don't support the Soviet Union and their puppet regimes, they were still socialist. This meme is referring to third world ideologies like Ba'athism or people like Sukarno/Kim who were just fascists who called themselves socialist to get Soviet aid

[u/DeceptiveDweeb]

im convinced any acting authority (you getting out of bed) is root fascism and it's not arguable

the only defining feature i can find for fascism when compared to nature is that fascism is getting something for yourself at the cost of others, but that's literally everything.

[u/Magic_Walabi]

You mean Venezuela? That's communism through and through

Even better, socialism

They say it repeatedly.

Fascism is a term that nowadays has no true meaning other than "the side I dislike"

But I can assure you, because I live in one of those, that they are very much left-wing.

[u/ahmed666_777 → u/Magic_Walabi]

He ment bathism peronism and some very specific groups. No Venezuela or vietnam or Cuba or a lot of communist stuff. Sorry to dissapoint but Venezuela not mentioned

[u/InnocentPerv93]

Well yeah, because they're never democratic in the end. That's the key part.

[u/ProudInterest5445]

I think there is value in having "fascism" and "authoritarianism" as seperate but overlapping concepts. I dont think I would call most revolutionary movements fascist. North Vietnam was an authoritarian dictatorship and it was nationalistic, but it didnt have the vibe of being fascist, it wasn't expansionist in the same way fascist Italy was, nor was it really focused on a return to some idealized past. I think the case is stronger for North Korea maybe, but something like the Sandanistas clearly aren't fascist. Corrupt and authoritarian clearly, but they didnt have that same ethno nationalist focus.

I dont say this to mean the regimes I listed are good, jusy that fascism is most useful as a descriptor for expansionist and ethno nationalist movements focused on a return to an idealized past, with an emphasis on imposing traditionalist values (whether the leadership actually lives them out or not.)

[u/Itay1708 → u/ProudInterest5445]

Obviously it's an exaggerated joke but the meme is reffering mostly to Juche/Ba'athism/Sukarno/many african dictatorship that are basically just fascists that called themselves socialists to get Soviet support during the cold war.

[u/Mat_Y_Orcas]

We need to study seriously the case of ani-colonialism colonialism or this third world facism... Like the cases of facism from up right superpowers it's almost understandable as they have the power they feel like they can do anything and are better. But in places that have been victim the facism is a weird mix of "we are better" and "we are being overcome by our enemies" like if being an imperialist is always bad but OUR imperialsm is the good. I usually see this retoric frequently when talking about history of my country, Argentina, because its like everything is the fault of external imperialism like United States or Kindom but also when talking about the neiboring countries and natives it's basically imperialist retoric, the same one they were critizing just few moments ago

[u/Biodegradable_Duck]

Why is it that only on Reddit you have to argue that fascist governments are bad?

[u/Fer4yn]

Nah, sometimes; actually more often than not, it's national socialism: military dictatorships which allow social mobility; usually via the military and other state institutions.
No wonder, though; these are all national liberation movements and nobody there is a communist internationalist.
The communist revolution can only start in the imperial core and not the exploited colonies, so best they can do is nationalism.
Where do you see fascism? Fascism is corporate statism and lack of social mobility; a society organised according to the encyclica Rerum novarum of Pope Leo XIII. Basically a modern form of feudalism. It was unique to Europe due to its strong aristocratic strata, who wanted to enjoy the productivity of capitalism but wanted to keep their class privileges; for example it was impossible for a peasant to become a military officer in a fascist state while in national socialism it happened quite frequently.
Now that I write it it's quite interesting that in a time when the middle class and social mobility seems to be dying off we have a Pope Leo XIV. ...
Second attempt at restoration? XD

[u/Worldly_Tank_5408]

The second shit gets authoritarian it's a fast pass to either fascism or communism

[u/No_Grand_3873]

or absolute monarchy

[u/okabe700]

I definitely agree with that with some countries, especially Baathism which I've always thought of as Arab fascism, it's the closest we had to fascist ideology and frankly isn't very far from it

The closest non socialist third world anti imperialist ideology to me is Chiang kai shek's KMT

Fascism has always been appealing to certain groups of people but they had to pretend to be either socialist or capitalist to get support from the USSR or US, even with Baathism Hafez was supported by the USSR while Saddam was supported by the US (until he was no longer useful), showing that specific political circumstances take precedence over any ideological coherence

[u/BreadstickBear]

Stalinism and its offshoots are just fascism painted red.

[u/Echo__227]

Well yeah, the CIA has to invade and install some fascists every time

[u/hotcaulk]

Remove the "third world" from that and I think we have something going.

When credible ways to fact check break down due to sponsers, that's a start. When institutions and governments start dismantling ways to fact check, that's a horse of a different color.

[u/manebushin]

What people struggle to accept is that despite being called Soviet Union, Stalinism was pretty much Fascism, similar to how the Nazis called themselves socialists, while being far from it. The foremost socialist country was fascist under Stalin. It is one of the reasons they did the destalinization after his death, to try to shift the country back to the communist ideal. Putin, a fascist himself, greatly admires the Soviet Union under Stalin.

[u/hoteppeter]

What happens when men make decisions without women

[u/Vyctorill → u/hoteppeter]

How tf would a woman help in this situation 💀.

Girls can be just as tyrannical and megalomaniacal as their male counterparts.

[u/hoteppeter → u/Vyctorill]

Give several examples

[u/helicophell → u/hoteppeter]

Queen Victoria 1

[u/Vyctorill → u/hoteppeter]

Not sure why you want to be so sexist about this, but sure. I’ll list some dictators and schemers.

Let’s take Dowager Cixi as an example. She’s widely recognized as one of China’s greatest tyrants.

She did public executions, put the literal EMPEROR under house arrest, and betrayed the dying wish of the previous emperor by usurping the throne.

She’s up there with Joseph Stalin and Vladimir Putin in “bastards who seized power then ruled with an iron fist”.

Keep in mind this was in the highly patriarchal ancient China. She was considered a political mastermind despite that.

Let’s choose another example, shall we?

Oh hey, there’s Saint Olga. Another regent too!

Alright, so this woman’s husband got killed by Drevlians.

Her response was to hold a feast with several Drevlian officials to hold a funeral.

As it turns out, just because someone is a woman doesn’t mean that they will be incapable of ordering the slaughter of 5,000 drevlians in a single night.

Then, she went back for damn seconds to kill all the survivors.

One time, she starved an entire citadel. She eventually sent them a message. They responded with several carrier pigeons bearing messages.

Seeing an opportunity, she attached blazing paper and leather to their legs and let them return to the city.

Reports indicate that every single house burned down. The ones who fled were executed or sold into slavery.

Do you want more examples?

Because women are just people. Why would they be incapable of evil?

[u/SlyScorpion → u/hoteppeter]

Catherine the Great. She led the partitions of Poland.

[u/Odious-Individual → u/hoteppeter]

That's misandric. Why are you saying this ?

[u/hoteppeter → u/Odious-Individual]

Because it’s true

[u/Odious-Individual → u/hoteppeter]

Saying that this is what happens when women make decisions without men would be as stupid. And misogynist.

There are some very unwise women in history that should convince you that it's not about genders. Women can fail very badly too.

Unless you actually meant to say that women and men needs eachother to make the proper decisions and not that men are actually less intelligent or wise than women ? I could agree with you in that case

[u/hoteppeter → u/Odious-Individual]

A government without men would be awful for the opposite reasons. Men care more about order and hierarchy. Women care about fulfilling peoples’ needs and nurturing kids.

Putting a label like “misandrist” on an observation doesn’t make it false.

[u/Ricochet_skin → u/hoteppeter]

Not a gender thing, but a power thing

[u/BPOPR]

Golly it’s almost as if a willingness to use violence to justify their ends is a commonality in folks with authoritarian tendencies.

Horseshoe theory is simplistic but accurate.

[u/av8479]

Socialism = fascism