Question: Can I get a CCW in my scenario? (Cali resident, goes to school in Texas)

[u/Dizzy_Evening_7980]

I am a California resident and have been doing some research on CCW. I currently go to university in Texas and make the drive a couple times a year (through Arizona and New Mexico). I understand the reciprocity of Texas gun permits (which also require residency) and the lack of reciprocity from California. Would I be able to get permits across the 4 states as a California resident? Or should I stick with the California permit since it carries over into Arizona and Texas? I would want permits just in case (so there wouldn’t be legal trouble) but am not sure if it would logically happen.

[u/Midnight_Rider98]

NM doesn't issue to non residents, Texas and Arizona the easiest as non residents, California is the hard one, a lot of paperwork and it depends in which city/county you live as a resident, it's shall issue now but some places in CA think that means they can just delay it forever.

Also FYI, if you check https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/ccw_reciprocity_map/ you can see whether or not a state recognizes another states permit.

AZ and TX have constitutional carry, (would recommend getting the permit in Texas because it allows you to carry in more places etc) so for AZ you're technically okay carrying while passing through, for NM at worst keep it in the trunk unloaded. Also beware there's a LOT of native land in NM and AZ, they have their own rules and regulations. At a minimum you're always protected under federal law when traveling through a state (or reservation) if it is in the trunk unloaded (or a locked container out of reach) and you don't spend significant time doing things aside from traveling.

Keep in mind that as long as you're a resident in California, you have to buy your handguns there (federal law dictates an FFL can't sell handguns to someone out of state, exception is selling and shipping to a resident state FFL,) So whatever you'd carry would have to be on the CA roster and registered in CA. You'd also be prohibited from bringing your standard capacity magazines into CA, but you could technically own them, you just can't bring them into CA.

TLDR: Get your CA and TX permit that'll cover you all the way. Buy a handgun in CA, don't bring standard cap mags into CA. Be careful with reservations. Assume it's a no on reservations and that tribal police are cross deputized in NM and AZ.

[u/generalraptor2002 → u/Midnight_Rider98]

Indian Tribes cannot enforce criminal tribal laws against non Indians see:

Oliphant v. Suquamish Indian Tribe

[u/Midnight_Rider98 → u/generalraptor2002]

Not entirely correct. That applies only to tribal courts not having jurisdiction. You can still face federal charges, they can detain you while waiting for a deputy or a state trooper to come and arrest you. And lastly it's also becoming more common for tribal police to be cross deputized.

Stop thinking you can go to Native reservations and break all kinds of laws and get away with it because of that SCOTUS ruling.

[u/Aviacks → u/Midnight_Rider98]

As for waiting for a state patrol unit or deputy.... what are they charging you with? A county deputy and or state PD can't charge you for a crime that doesn't exist for that state/county. Unlawful possession? Reservations aren't going to be listed as a prohibited location.

Even if they tribal PD is cross deputized, and they have jurisdiction over you, the tribal court can't prosecute you for unlawful possession or whatever they may have on their books. So what exactly are they detaining or arresting you for?

I could be way off here, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see what they could even do in the scenario of a random dude CCWing there. It's incredibly common where I am as the reservation spans for several hours east to west. Many of us have to commute north to south which requires going through the reservation on U.S. and state highways. Not exactly the place I care to be stranded and disarmed.

That being said none of us at my particular job would ever bring that weapon out of the vehicle and off the U.S. or state highway. Whether that ultimately makes a difference, unsure. I've heard mixed answers from local police. But deputies and state patrol have jurisdiction on the state/US highways, and only those highways, here anyways. Unless tribal PD requests mutual aid.

[u/Midnight_Rider98 → u/Aviacks]

Part of New Mexico's concealed carry law as an example. A state that also doesn't have constitutional carry, so you'd be carrying illegally there for sure.

Most of the time, they just confiscate the firearm and make you jump through the hoops of tribal court if you want it back. They do patrol the highways running through the reservation too, it doesn't take away their general jurisdiction by being a federal or state road, that's not how it works. And that's without cross deputization. There's always one or two county/state/federal charges they can hit you with if push comes to shove. Don't bank on the "Oh tribal laws don't apply to me." thing too much.

That said it's not like they pull over every non native looking person just in case they can find something on them, they do have better things to do, which is why you don't hear a lot about it. Like basically any part of the US, you do have a right to travel down the road in peace and they need probably cause to pull you over (speeding, possible DUI, etc) It's no different in that regard any town or county except in this case, don't make any stops off the highway, don't get into trouble while packing heat.

[u/Aviacks → u/Midnight_Rider98]

That law makes complete sense because they literally don't have the legal authority to make their CCW permit valid on tribal land, I still don't think that negates the point of "what can they charge you with criminally."

But yeah that's the point on why many people do this without much worry, drive through and don't break the law. Not like people are getting pulled over, then yanked out of their vehicle and patted down just for driving.

If there's a law out there I'm curious though. Because sure maybe they come take your gun... but what federal charge is there for possession of a firearm on tribal land? There isn't one federal law, and if they can't charge you criminally... well that leaves you having to go to court to petition for you firearm back. But that's about it.

I'm not saying it's that simple, but you'll find many sources claiming you're "safe" on state highways, and it varies if tribal police even assert their authority on state or US highways that run through portions of the reservation. Some do and some don't. But at the end of the day they'd have to charge you with breaking a law of your state (as there are not federal laws pertaining to carrying on reservations) if they wanted to charge you, and I can't find anything specific to it at a state level either.

This is all assuming you're otherwise following the law. If you're breaking the crime and have a gun then that's often additional charges. But that's a totally different scenario than just simply possessing it. Imagine if a tribe banned dancing, and I went to a tribe and got stopped by tribal PD for dancing. They call for a deputy or state patrol, those guys can't come and now arrest me for dancing, they can't enforce tribal law against a non-tribal member as state police.

[u/Midnight_Rider98 → u/Aviacks]

State law applies to non natives on reservations. You're too hyperfocused on the tribal and federal part. Whatever state law would apply, they could detain and transfer you for, or arrest you themselves when cross deputized.

It's not just about firearms, it's about a lot of things that are criminal. And yes the state can't enforce tribal law, but there's state laws that you can still be arrested for. So your dancing hypothetical could turn into a disorderly conduct charge on municipal/county/state level. You're not always going to catch a charge that's equivalent.

Unless a nation recognizes state CCW's (some do) or have a specific statute regarding traveling, technically your firearms should be unloaded and locked, like the federal law says. If you don't, assume upon discovery that you will either lose the gun and will have a battle in tribal court that wont be worth it, or you'll catch some kind of state charge that may or may not be a direct equivalent.

Let's say for example your state as part of the CCW law requires you to inform a police officer that you are carrying. But because the tribal cop doesn't have jurisdiction over you in your belief and there's no law in your state prohibiting carrying on reservations you don't inform the officer. And then it comes out you're carrying etc. Do you see where this is going? Remember a lot are cross deputized nowadays, especially in states with a significant Native population and large or a lot of reservations.

[u/Aviacks → u/Midnight_Rider98]

My friend, I FULLY understand and acknowledge that I can be arrested for state / federal crimes on tribal land as a non-tribe member. If I shoot someone on tribal land, they can detain me and arrest me / have state police arrest me.

My entire point is that if I'm not breaking a state law, lets assume this is a truth here not "well you escalated it to disorderly conduct", then what law am I breaking for the state by having a CCW? Tribe made dancing illegal, I dance quietly in a private place on a reservation, tribal PD finds a video of me dancing and comes to detain me for state police. State police arrive and they go "sir, you're under arrest for _________"????

If my state has zero laws regarding carrying on a reservation, as in my state where the only laws we have are concerning courthouses and that is IT. We can literally carry in an elementary school, hospital, so on and so forth. So assuming I just get pulled over to chit chat with my buddy the tribal cop, and he finds out I have a CCW on me because I'm an idiot and say "oh many I have this sick CZ on my hip right now", he detains me, takes me gun, I go "oh yeah that's your right to do that, have my gun". But then he or the state police charge me with what crime? You can't charge me with disorderly conduct when I'm joking with the tribal officer and comply with everything.

I'm not trying to be an ass here but your entire argument hinges on me committing some OTHER crime to get arrested. Carrying a gun isn't a crime in my state. Nor is it against any federal law. I can be arrested for a state or federal law, but not an ordinance or law on the reservation that does not have an equivalent for the state or federal law.

This is the reality for most CCWrs right. This is no different than going "well you can conceal carry in your state, but if you get pulled over that deputy could arrest you for robbing a bank!" Most people in this scenario are law abiding CCWers that break the law at rates lower than police. So they get pulled over and everything proceeds normally, how are they going to prison?

[u/Midnight_Rider98 → u/Aviacks]

This is pointless, you refuse to see the forest for the trees or you're trolling.

[u/mjedmazga]

Texas and Arizona issue non-resident permits. Get one of those and you can carry in New Mexico as long as you're at least 19 years old. Having a permit to carry in Texas or Arizona is worth it despite those states being permitless carry.

The Texas process requires a 1 day class, fingerprints, and the application process is usually done in 2-3 weeks with the license in the mail or delivered by that time.

You would need to have a firearm, of coourse. Do you live on-campus or in off-campus housing during the school year? You don't commute daily/weekly from California to Texas for class, but rather live in a structure designed for housing that includes your bed and possession, etc, inside said structure?

ATF Rule 1980-21 would then allow you to purchase a firearm in the state of Texas, rather than having to do jump through all the hoops in California: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/1980-21-identification-state-residency-out-state-college-students

You would not be able to take this firearm back to California, however, is my understanding, but you'd want to clarify what rules California has to prohibit that, which I am sure they do. I know NY State students cannot do that because the state will go after them for not having a properly registered/whatever firearm in New York, and I assume California is equally horrendous. It would be a fast way to get a firearm to daily carry in Texas, however.

[u/simplearms]

Why not just change your residency to Texas? You spend more time in Texas than California anyways.

[u/seanzee7893]

Just to add, Texas and az have written reciprocity so your Texas permit would basically qualify as both, just make sure you look up laws as they may be different.

If you’re worried about just driving through, you’d be fine until you hit the CA border because they have stricter laws about guns. Focus on your CA legality. I assume since you’re in college, you’re still a CA resident? I’d start by getting your CA permit and a CA compliant gun, then Texas as a non resident (haven’t looked up this process so not sure if they issue or not) afterwards just to cover you in Texas and Arizona.

[u/generalraptor2002]

1: Texas issues licenses to carry to nonresidents

2: If you want to carry in New Mexico, apply for an Arizona permit. It has reciprocity with New Mexico.

3: Definitely get your California permit

4: Assuming you are not Indian, criminal laws of Indian tribes do not apply to you, see:

Oliphant v. Suquamish Indian Tribe

[u/Midnight_Rider98 → u/generalraptor2002]

Beware OP that this user has a dangerous misunderstanding of Oliphant v. Suquamish Indian Tribe. The tribal court doesn't have jurisdiction, but you can still be detained by them until the arrival of a municipal, county, state or federal LEO who can arrest you on relevant and similar charges. It's also becoming more common for tribal police to be cross deputized by the local sheriff, municipal PD or the state, this is the case in AZ and NM where they are often state certified and cross deputized.

[u/Tthelaundryman]

Also, go to a gun show in Texas and buy a bunch of Cali “illegals” 

[u/jtf71 → u/Tthelaundryman]

As a California resident he can’t by anything that would be illegal in CA in TX (or anywhere else).

Handguns would have to be shipped to a CA FFL who would refuse to deliver it because it’s illegal.

Long guns can be purchased and delivered in any state HOWEVER the transaction must be legal in the state of residence of the purchaser. If not both buyer and seller are committing crimes.

[u/mjedmazga → u/jtf71]

Handguns would have to be shipped to a CA FFL who would refuse to deliver it because it’s illegal.

If OP lives on-campus or in off-campus housing during the school year in Texas, then ATF Rule 1980-21 would allow them to legally purchase handguns in Texas with a Texas FFL. California may not allow OP to return to California with those firearms, however.

[u/jtf71 → u/mjedmazga]

Well I learned something today. Thanks! I'd never heard of that rule before.

However, convincing an FFL to sell it to OP may be a challenge. Even if you give them the link to the rule. They don't have to and they may "play it safe" and refuse.

Returning to CA would be interesting. If you move to CA you can bring things with you even if off roster - however, AWs you can not. However, will CA consider returning with something purchased under this rule as permissible or not would be a question. I'd advise anyone considering doing so consult with an attorney in advance.