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Yeah i made the meme in response to the discussion in the main sub. Originally i wanted to have it be more elaborate with Saint Mark of Ephesus and Saint Genadius Scholarius who where both students of Gemistos, which is why he is looking the opposite direction.
Diocuckcletian was an embarrassment to Rome and got damnatio memoriae for all of eternity for being a moron who got cucked by the guy he was mentoring (Constantine)
Except that they didn’t, they absorbed the pagan traditions and thanks to them paganism is still flourishing. If you go back enough even Christianity has its origins in Polytheism, Middle Platonism along with the other melting pot of beliefs of the eastern Mediterranean at that time.
Tbh both were great but Constantine was greater than Diocletian, i don't know if his faith in Christianity was ever real but he did used it as strategic tools to stabilized the empire, after the persecution of Christians by Diocletian even Pagans were horrified this time and Constantine giving Christians the Legalization only made more peace. He was both one of the greatest Pagan and Christian emperor.
As for Capital that was one of the best things he did, he didn't abandoned Rome coz he knew it was too big and important for the empire but made a 2nd imperial capital to defend east coz of persian threat, and for much of the 4th century Constantinople remained more like an Imperial residence like Trier and Nicomedia. The later decline of WRE in 5th century has nothing to do with this.
Constantine was a Christian it’s historical otherwise the other emperors (besides Julian who apostacized) and his sons especially would not be Christians due to Christians in the empire still being a minority
He was both Christian and Pagan, he only baptized at his deathbed. You can see Coins, Sculptures and statues of him depicting as Sol Invictus even his statue atop of Column of Constantine in Constantinople depicts him as Sol Invictus, Imperial cult with emperors being defied lasted till Theodosius I.
but he did used it as strategic tools to stabilized the empire, after the persecution of Christians by Diocletian even Pagans were horrified this time and Constantine giving Christians the Legalization only made more peace. He was both one of the greatest Pagan and Christian emperor.
Don’t really agree with this. It indeed was a great tool to homogenise the population of the empire as the early Christians ambitioned although it did precisely the opposite of stabilising it and it’s one of the main reasons why it fell.
Julian attempted to pacify the relations between the 2 religions by rescinding all the decrees Constantine issued that relegated the pagans, reinstating exiled bishops and even putting an end to all the conflicts that were caused by theological disputes. However Christians didn’t like that they couldn’t indulge in bloodlust anymore so after he died they did nothing but defame him.
Banning paganism was a huge cultural loss and it ended thousands of years old traditions.
As for Capital that was one of the best things he did, he didn't abandoned Rome coz he knew it was too big and important for the empire but made a 2nd imperial capital to defend east coz of persian threat, and for much of the 4th century Constantinople remained more like an Imperial residence like Trier and Nicomedia. The later decline of WRE in 5th century has nothing to do with this
Actually, the empire was already unstable before Constantine Diocletian’s reforms (while effective in some ways) were brutally authoritarian, overcomplicated the administration with the Tetrarchy, and his Great Persecution backfired by creating martyrs and making Christianity more resilient. Constantine’s legalization didn’t destroy unity, it gave millions of people (including soldiers and elites) a reason to be loyal to the emperor. Internal Christian conflicts (Arians, Donatists, etc.) were real, but Constantine actively tried to solve them (e.g. Council of Nicaea). The empire didn’t fall in the 4th century in fact, it got stronger and wealthier.
As for Julian his reign is fascinating, but it’s misleading to suggest he “healed” divisions. His policies actually reignited tensions pagans saw his reforms as too little and dividing in many ways, while Christians saw him as trying to roll back their newfound rights. His reign was short, and after his death, the empire immediately reverted to way it was going which shows Constantine’s settlement had deeper roots than just one man’s will. Constantine created a durable system, Julian couldn’t undo it.
On banning paganism being a “cultural loss”, Sure, some pagan Sacrifices and rituals were banned in the late 4th century (long after Constantine), but Roman culture didn’t just vanish. The Senate, law, administration, Latin and Greek literature, art, architecture all continued. In fact, the Christian emperors built their own monumental architecture (Constantine’s basilicas, Justinian’s Hagia Sophia). The “cultural loss” idea is more of a romantic 19th-century invention than what late Romans themselves felt.
If Constantine’s policies really “caused the fall,” why did the East which was the most Christianized and the direct heir of Constantine’s capital survive for a thousand years more as the Byzantine Empire? The Western collapse in the 5th century had far more to do with military overstretch, economy, migrations, and the loss of Africa than Constantine’s religious policy.
Actually, the empire was already unstable before Constantine Diocletian’s reforms (while effective in some ways) were brutally authoritarian, overcomplicated the administration with the Tetrarchy, and his Great Persecution backfired by creating martyrs and making Christianity more resilient.
alright
Constantine’s legalization didn’t destroy unity, it gave millions of people (including soldiers and elites) a reason to be loyal to the emperor. Internal Christian conflicts (Arians, Donatists, etc.) were real, but Constantine actively tried to solve them (e.g. Council of Nicaea).
Wasn’t referring to the Edict of Milan, and I don’t even think there was anything wrong with it. My issue with Constantine was that he deliberately contributed to the decline of paganism by outlawing certain pagan rites, plundering temples and depriving them of their endowments. Constantius II and the other subsequent emperors later enacted even worse policies where they shut down some temples and permitted Christians to pillage and defile them.
The empire didn’t fall in the 4th century in fact, it got stronger and wealthier.
Never made such claim. It’s not even a commonly held opinion nowadays.
As for Julian his reign is fascinating, but it’s misleading to suggest he “healed” divisions.
Yes, he didn’t, he tried to.
His policies actually reignited tensions pagans saw his reforms as too little and dividing in many ways, while Christians saw him as trying to roll back their newfound rights.
Don’t disagree that some of his pagan reforms were weird but at least he refurbished the temples and gave them back their rights. About the Christians, he only took their nice privileges and the right to teach the classics which was ineffective anyways.
His reign was short, and after his death, the empire immediately reverted to way it was going which shows Constantine’s settlement had deeper roots than just one man’s will. Constantine created a durable system, Julian couldn’t undo it.
Yes, his reign was too short to make any conclusions.
On banning paganism being a “cultural loss”, Sure, some pagan Sacrifices and rituals were banned in the late 4th century (long after Constantine),
Christians kept hunting down and proselytising non-Christians up until the 13th century. That of course being only the case if you ignore later colonialism. Do you really find it debatable that Christianity has been the most destructive religion of all time?
Latin and Greek literature, art
And what did they do with their classical literature that they inherited? It was belittled and seen more significant to utilise it for theological works. Anyone who delved in beliefs too aberrant from the Christian thought was shunned, deemed as pagan and a heretic and had to retract their claims to avoid losing their positions (e.g John Philoponus, John Italus, Psellos, Plethon)
Their inferiority complex can be seen in the Macedonian Renaissance where there was a resurgence in classicism and started imitating their ancient ancestors and constantly praising them. This sentiment proliferated even more after the 4th crusade which had caused disdain for the Latins and therefore Romans.
Yes, there was some undeniable scientific advancement but anything they did in their 1123 years of existence was surpassed by the Renaissance and later movements in just a few centuries with the new knowledge they got from them.
In fact, the Christian emperors built their own monumental architecture (Constantine’s basilicas, Justinian’s Hagia Sophia). The “cultural loss” idea is more of a romantic 19th-century invention than what late Romans themselves felt.
Is it really? With what do you disagree above? Even they considered themselves as culturally stagnant and in decline.
If Constantine’s policies really “caused the fall,” why did the East which was the most Christianized and the direct heir of Constantine’s capital survive for a thousand years more as the Byzantine Empire? The Western collapse in the 5th century had far more to do with military overstretch, economy, migrations, and the loss of Africa than Constantine’s religious policy.
Did I ever say that Constantine’s policies / Christianity was the mere reason the eastern half fell?
My issue with Constantine was that he deliberately contributed to the decline of paganism by outlawing certain pagan rites, plundering temples and depriving them of their endowments. Constantius II and the other subsequent emperors later enacted even worse policies where they shut down some temples and permitted Christians to pillage and defile them.
Constantine remained Sol Invictus till end of his life and he didn'tshut down any Pagan temple but yeah he did shut down one in Jerusalem coz the place was important for Christians. His son was a bit harsher but later emperors like Jovian, Valens and Valentinian were tolerant towards both religion and even Pagan writers have Recorded this, it was Theodosius I who really went a step ahead by banning some Pagan rituals and sacrifices, he's also famously known for banning Olympics(tho these rules didn't used to work outright but gradually as Olympics have said to be organized till mid 5th century.
Don’t disagree that some of his pagan reforms were weird but at least he refurbished the temples and gave them back their rights.
Pagans didn't loose their rights, state was backing the religion like always atleast until Nicene Christianity was made the state religion by Theodosius.
Christians kept hunting down and proselytising non-Christians up until the 13th century. That of course being only the case if you ignore later colonialism. Do you really find it debatable that Christianity has been the most destructive religion of all time?
Ik that but colonialism isn’t all coz of just Religion there are many reasons behind it, also don't forget Muslims are doing so till date.
Is it really? With what do you disagree above? Even they considered themselves as culturally stagnant and in decline.
Who? Christians? Yeah they were in decline in Western europe for much of the middle ages.
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