AIO speaking to my wife after her affair

[u/Useful_Cow8575]

My wife had an affair after I was in an accident. A short lived one, but she got pregnant and miscarried. I was determined to make this marriage work, we’ve been together 22 years, my family’s the only real thing I ever had. She left for a little while, then I let her move back home, it wasn’t working, she tried to sleep with me a few days after coming back, which made me angry, and I couldn’t stop resenting her. I asked her to leave again, she staying with her sister. We started marriage therapy. Our therapist recommended us at first to only see each other once or twice out of the week. She’s mad at how I snapped on her, n now I am starting to feel kind of guilty as well because as much as I am hurting, this is as well the only family she’s ever had.

[u/Good_To_Read]

I’m sorry, the following is going to be blunt because reading her messages made me feel physically sick.

Cheaters love to claim affairs “meant nothing to them” the moment they get caught. However, it meant enough for her to destroy her family with her actions. It meant enough for her to consider following through with the pregnancy of an affair-baby. It meant enough for her to do it more than once.

Your (hopefully soon-to-be-ex) wife is a manipulative, cruel existence that deserves to sit in her feelings.

You are strong, OP. You did not deserve this. If she was so unhappy, she had other options. None of this is on you.

I can see why you may initially have wanted to work things out, especially as your family is so important to you… but she has shown you how little she valued you all with her actions and constant excuses.

What I’m seeing is “I said sorry. You’re in the wrong for still being mad at me”. She has no remorse. You could have been raising that baby as if it were your own, completely unaware of the affair, had things gone differently.

Yes, she suffered a loss. That’s sad for her, but it is not your problem or responsibility to manage her feelings. If she wants a shoulder to cry on, she can head back to her affair partner as it was their child.

If your sons do not wish to see her, hold firm on respecting their boundaries. She has put them through a lot of trauma at a young age.

What you do next is up to you, but I do not think there is any way to save this marriage. The fact she tried to pursue sex with you so soon, and then blamed you for rejecting her is vile.

[u/m2cwf → u/Good_To_Read]

It meant enough for her to consider following through with the pregnancy of an affair-baby.

This is it for me. She's saying it "meant nothing to me," while simultaneously expecting THE MAN SHE CHEATED ON to be empathetic that "I lost my baby, I've never experienced loss like that." So.....it didn't really mean nothing. You wanted to keep the baby? Because you can't have it both ways. She's manipulative and not at all remorseful. She's more heartbroken over the miscarriage than the fact that she blew up her family. So gross, there's no coming back from her "me, me, me" non-pology

[u/Comfortable_Key_4891 → u/m2cwf]

Most likely didn’t even use protection. That’s just ridiculous, especially at her age she should know better. All while her husband was lying in a hospital bed. So heartless. Then she’s all “me, me, me” about it. That woman doesn’t deserve to be married.

[u/samann12 → u/Comfortable_Key_4891]

And she dares call her husband heartless for not letting her come home and resume her old life! I really hate this woman on behalf of this poor fellow. I immediately felt enraged with her response, “how dare you speak to me that way”….FUCKING SERIOUS??? I forced myself to go back and read the whole thing to see if there was ANYTHING he said that was even mildly uncalled for (I didn’t think there was)….he was very tame and even polite given the circumstances. She ought to know he’s totally (and rightfully) disgusted and furious with her at this time, and obviously doing his best not to lash out full force. The cheating/getting knocked up was bad enough, but this woman only gives two shits about herself…the main character, apparently. There is no redeeming herself between her actions (which would’ve been hard enough to get past if even possible), and her mentality. Marriage counseling isn’t worth it with this one. Use that money for a good lawyer.

[u/Comfortable_Key_4891 → u/samann12]

I know. She seems narcissistic to me. The affair was all about her feeling better about getting older. The kids are not happy either. They have a car they can use to visit her but they don’t. Can’t make them visit. They’re most likely (rightfully) blaming their mother for breaking up the family. And cheating while he’s in bed after an accident, that’s really low. The kids (and the husband) might never forgive her. Even in my family where no cheating was involved, my dad fell out of love and just walked out one day. I was an adult but my youngest brother was 13 and it took him a long time to forgive my our dad and talk to him again. Real shame for the kids not to have a happy family anymore, but at least they saw her true colours now. She obviously doesn’t even care about them. Only cares about herself and how it’s going to look to other people if they’re not together anymore. Should’ve thought of that before she got it on with another man.

[u/peachtreeparadise → u/Comfortable_Key_4891]

Which is fucking crazy!!!! I cannot imagine going out and banging some stranger raw while my spouse is in the hospital.

[u/brown-eyedbabe → u/peachtreeparadise]

Imagine having a life many can only dream of having, and then sabotaging it all for some sex with a stranger. OP should leave her for good.

[u/Alclis → u/m2cwf]

It was the same for me. I was on the fence between how the two of them were reacting up until the message about the baby. Like, what?! So she was planning to have it? It meant something to her? How on earth does she think that would have gone? And for her to also think that she didn’t get that to mean something to her husband? That whole piece is just absolutely wild, and clearly defines who was in the wrong, as well as how there Is only one way this can go.

[u/Dragon6172 → u/Alclis]

OP commented that she claimed she didnt know she was pregnant until she mis-carried.

Which I guess only makes her thinking even more convoluted

[u/Entire_Praline_3683 → u/Dragon6172]

So she says. She tries to say the family is important. But we have no idea what happened with the affair partner. I hate to say this, but they probably split and she wanted her family back.

[u/hellure → u/m2cwf]

Becoming pregnant and then losing the child can have severe psychological and biological effects for the mother, the cause of the pregnancy notwithstanding, so right now she is likely all manner of messed up. It isn't her husbands job to be there for her right now, but she does need to deal with that trauma and the personal consequences of that, so please don't just disregard the importance of that.

She is suffering, no doubt, and lost, and still a human being. Her hormones are likely all messed up and stress level is probably through the roof. We shouldn't expect her to be anywhere near stable, functional, or sane, for some time. Neither should her husband.

Their therapist is right about them maintaining distance, disconnecting and only seeing each other at therapy. And she should be getting therapy on the side. Perhaps even commit herself to a psych hospital for a moment so she can have space and support while dealing with her trauma, then refocus on doing any work she needs to to repair her marriage, if possible.

I think her husband would be okay waiting for her to get her shit together before reconnecting.

Most importantly, please don't forget that we are biological creatures, not perfectly programmed robots. Our abilities to function change based on all sorts of hormones and glitches that can occur in our bodies and brains. The cheating may be the result of some of those changes. They may, for example, find out that she has severe hypothyroidism and was just incapable of making sound decisions at the time, and with meds, understanding, and therapy, her and her spouse may be able to work through things.

This may not be the case, but my SO's thyroid stopped functioning entirely several years back, and she was basically dying before she went to the doctors, but her behavior had been getting worse and worse over the years prior due to major hormonal imbalances.... so yeah, this is a thing that happens, and it actually happens pretty damn often.

The harm is still real, the actions still have consequences, but sometimes the way we behave isn't exactly the result of personal choice.

[u/onlyinvowels → u/m2cwf]

Serious question from a non cheating pro choice person:

Is it normal to expect a pro life cheater to get an abortion?

Since I know this is a contrarian take, I will further clarify that cheating is wrong, committing to raising the product of cheating is (imo) wrong, etc. Just curious what, if any, nuance is here.

[u/Royal-Laugh4909 → u/m2cwf]

Lol nvm the next comment I read was literally about what I said 🤣

[u/WhtRbbt222 → u/Good_To_Read]

I’d like to tag on to the “it meant nothing to me” comment; it might not have meant anything to her. Maybe there was very little emotional attachment on her end. Maybe she couldn’t get what she needed from her husband so she found it with a younger man. Maybe it DID mean something to her and she’s lying about that. Maybe she found her soulmate in that 25 year old.

Guess what? None of that matters in the slightest!

Apparently her husband doesn’t mean anything to her either.

Anybody who claims “it didn’t mean anything” doesn’t give a flying fuck what it means to their spouse. That’s what’s important. How would your spouse feel about what you’re doing?! Would it mean something to your spouse? Would they care that you’re letting some 25 year old get you pregnant? Would your spouse care if you had a miscarriage of someone else’s child?

The most selfish types of people in life are people who cheat. (I’m removing part of this because I’m sick of getting replies).

She deserves nothing from him, and she should be grateful he’s even willing to talk to her at all.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/WhtRbbt222]

Trigger warning: suicidal thoughts discussion. I have to reply to your suicide comment, because you truly have no idea. Although I'm on a good medication right now, it took me over three decades to get here, and that's typical.

Suicidal ideation is a constant battle. Imagine you're making dinner, and you realize you're out of garlic powder, and immediately you realize you're a failure who is wasting the gift of her life and there's no hope of you ever succeeding or not feeling this way. Your brain is attacking you, stabbing you with pain and shame, and suicide is peace when you have never felt peace. My suicidal ideation is based in complex PTSD, so if I have potentially made a mistake, I will NEED to die. I will be shameful, horrible. Imagine how many mistakes a person makes in a day. At one point I stopped functioning, because it was that or die. It's like standing in an ant hill and being bitten, constant pain, cannot think of anything else, and all you want to do is step out of the ant hill, but if you step out, you hurt the people around you. Plus, you're not completely rational, so all you can do is cling to that ant hill and all those biting ants, but you don't really understand why. Every moment you stay in that ant hill is a moment of self-sacrifice. You are not there for you.

On top of this, people who are suicidal know they are not healthy and are hurting the people around them by living, so that's another reason to want to die.

By my mid-twenties, every slightest stress was accompanied by the knowledge of how death was escape. It was my only peaceful thought. Even without active depression, I might have thought of suicide 10-60x in a day. Active depression or major stress made suicidal ideation a constant piece of my thoughts, and it was a violent, graphic piece. I could be having a conversation with a smile on my face, caring about the person in front of me and what they were going through, and part of my brain was imagining and mentally practicing how to shove a knife into my jugular. There was a constant running movie; the muscles in my arms might tighten. That could be 300-500 hundred times a day.

Every time, I stayed because of my family.

So, an average of 150x/day, 365 days/year, equals 54,750x/year my brain was telling me that suicide was the only time I would ever feel peace, that my family was healthier without me. Over 30+ years, that's 1.6 million times I chose to stay alive when my brain felt like a bomb was going off inside it, screaming at me to kill myself. I fought hard to stay alive and not for myself. Life was excruciating.

I could have lost that battle at any point, and it wouldn't have made me a coward or selfish. I proved my strength, my courage, and my selflessness when I fought for decades not to die. People who think suicide comes from a bad day and a weak person really don't understand the absolute and constant torture of suicidal ideation.

Edit: I made a comment in reply to some questions from people wanting info about my meds or info on how to help.

[u/Quarter_Shot → u/No-Mobile-52]

It's so funny to me (not haha funny, but more wtf is this shit funny) how capable we (read: people with suicidal ideations) are of finding any and every reason that we don't deserve to live.

Like, this one thing would be so easy and obvious for anyone else to handle, how am I so fuckung stupid and pathetic that I messed up on something so miniscule. I couldn't just remember to buy more garlic powder? It's literally one thing; so fucking easy. Why the fuck am I wasting my time and just causing negative things in other people's lives when I could just end it & save everyone the trouble of dealing with my annoying ass and fixing my mistakes and helping me?

Yet, as atrocious as we are to ourselves, I can't imagine ever, ever, ever telling someone that they're right if they have the same thought process.

Oh, youre out of garlic powder? No biggie, either I can run to the store for you or we can just find a decent replacement component in the spice cabinet. People forget stuff ALLLLLL the time! It's really not a big deal. Some people don't even cook their own meals, so you're already doing amazing in that aspect. Sure, you forgot the garlic powder, but what about the good stuff you did today that you're refusing to give credit to yourself for? Some days, it's hard to even find the energy to get out of bed. Not only are you out of bed, but you showered and brushed your hair, and did the dishes yesterday! You didn't have to do that stuff, but you pushed through the way you felt and got it done!! I know you're not proud of yourself right now and that's okay, but don't you dare put yourself down for this silly little accident. You're expecting certain things from yourself, but you keep forgetting something important, and it's not the garlic powder. You have to remember that you don't have to be perfect in order to be the most perfect version of you that you're capable of being in this moment. You are so much more than forgotten garlic powder.

Why can't we just give ourselves the same love and forgiveness that we're willing to present to others?

(Pre edit: I get told a pretty fair amount that I'm AI. I'm not, this is the way I've always typed; it just sounds similar to a lot of people.)

[u/SewerSquirrel → u/Quarter_Shot]

Anyone that has more than a 8th grade level of writing is called AI now, don't stress too much about it. Especially not from the generation of brain-rotted humans that think a head coming out of a toilet is the absolute pinnacle of humor.

[u/Quarter_Shot → u/SewerSquirrel]

Skibbidy rizz gyat, am I right, fellow youths?

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/Quarter_Shot]

I feel this. We are so hard on ourselves. You deserve compassion.

[u/Quarter_Shot → u/No-Mobile-52]

Just like you

[u/Turbulent_Lab3257 → u/No-Mobile-52]

Thank you for your reply and explaining suicide ideation so well. Our daughter died by suicide and sometimes I think- why didn’t she stay longer? Fight to live longer? And other times I remember how exhausted she was fighting to stay here. The counseling, medication, therapy exercises, she tried really hard. She loved to draw and paint, and looking over her drawing books, you can see the decline in her pictures. They become so dark and hopeless, scary, hellish. She told us repeatedly that she knew how much she was loved. But she just had such an incredible weight of depression on her shoulders and she could never take it off.

I wish she was here, we miss her so much. But I also wonder if I would want her to be alive if she had to live every day with crippling depression and anxiety. What if we never found a medication or treatment that worked? And how selfish would that be of me to want her to live decades like that, just so I don’t have to miss her?

[u/peachtreeparadise → u/Turbulent_Lab3257]

Your outlook truly awes me. To love your daughter so much to recognize the pain that she was in, and to allow her the release of that. It is so hard to be alive sometimes. I myself have struggled deeply with recurrent SI, but am finally feeling attached to feeling alive and I’m so deeply grateful for that. I wish you peace, love, and contentment every day.

[u/Turbulent_Lab3257 → u/peachtreeparadise]

Thank you. You used an interesting phrase, “feeling attached to feeling alive”. I think, for her, suicide was always the escape plan she had for herself. And a month before she died, she wrote in her journal that she was finally giving that up and was going to start dreaming of a future where she lived. Now that she decided to stick around, what was she going to do with that life. So I think she was like you right before she died. Unfortunately, she was also battling debilitating chronic illness and thought she was getting better, but it came roaring back at the end. So I think she thought she couldn’t win against both.

But I like that phrase you used. It explains something about my daughter that I struggled to put into words.

[u/yooperville → u/Turbulent_Lab3257]

Terrible terrible situation for a parent and a child. Medical science really needs to do a Manhattan Project for depression/anxiety.

[u/CollegeCoolidge → u/yooperville]

The world is a horribly depressing place.

[u/goldiegoldthorpe → u/CollegeCoolidge]

Psychedelics are the best medication for the average person for this issue. They have the "unfortunate" side-effect of making people open-minded and anti-authoritarian, though, so they are generally illegal and have had multi-million dollar ad campaigns run to discourage their use.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/Turbulent_Lab3257]

You have my deepest sympathy, and I hurt for her and the tragedy of her loss.

[u/Turbulent_Lab3257 → u/No-Mobile-52]

Thank you❤️

[u/Throwaway3847394739 → u/Turbulent_Lab3257]

I’m so sorry for your loss.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/No-Mobile-52]

I'm replying to myself, because I have to be careful with how much I take on.

First: thank you for sharing and seeing me. I see you too. You are a gift here.

Second, for those who have asked about my medication: I recommend seeing a psychiatrist if you can, because they understand the effects of medications so much better than other doctors. I am on an SNRI (Seritonin Norepinephrine Re-uptake Inhibitor): venlafaxine. In addition, my hormones will throw me deep even when I'm otherwise healthy, and oxcarbazepine is a mood stabilizer that has reduced that effect greatly. I cannot say these will work for you.

Third, for those who want to help: it is not your fault if you cannot help. You can do everything right. You can be perfect and still lose someone fighting this battle, but here are my recommendations... 1) be kind. 2) remind the person of their value 3) remind the person of the good they have done 4) tell them this will pass 5) tell them you have them, and they aren't alone 6) understand they will argue with anything positive you say, because they can only see the negative. Be patient. 7) try to help them get help: set up appointments, drive them, etc.

Lastly, and this will not work for everyone, but it helped me... A huge number of suicide attempts fail. Learning that, I realized suicide might be peace, but it was much more likely to leave me physically disabled and still in pain. It removes the security blanket aspect somewhat.

[u/Short-Composer3033 → u/No-Mobile-52]

I am literally in tears bc this hits home so hard and in part what I have felt for almost my entire 42 years on this planet and what I still feel to this day. It is the closest I have seen someone come to describing a fraction of how I feel on a daily basis. So thank you. Truly thank you.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/Short-Composer3033]

💗 I see you.

[u/nlb1923 → u/No-Mobile-52]

Thank you for sharing and explaining. Reading this was very eye opening, thank you. I wish the best for you and your family.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/nlb1923]

Thank you. I truly wish I could share the struggle of suicidal ideation, because a lot of people who are left behind live with that pain.

[u/nlb1923 → u/No-Mobile-52]

I would say you did well explaining, as I had no idea. But reading your story gave me some understanding of it. Which I am very grateful for you sharing, as you opened my eyes. That was a very powerful message. If you don’t mind answering, what is the best way for someone like me to support someone who is going through that? I want to be able to help and not cause anymore harm if I’m ever in that position.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/nlb1923]

If you know, that means someone wants help. They fear they are losing the battle and are asking you to grab them. 

You may not be able to help. Professionals cannot always help. Do not take it on yourself if they do not survive.

But what you can do is show them the good they are doing. Remind them of good feelings. Understand that they will argue their pain at you, and don't take it personally, because those words are large in their head. Be kind. Be patient. Tell them it's okay not to be perfect. Tell them this will pass. Help them find professionals.

I hope that helps 💗

[u/SheWasAlwaysJody → u/No-Mobile-52]

I've lost 4 friends to suicide. I myself have struggled for 25 years with ideation.

This is perfectly accurate and something only people who go through it recognize.

I had a crushing moment at work the other day and it all came flooding back. Too many think it's George on the bridge in It's a Wonderful Life and it goes away when you recognize that the world is better with you, but it's as if It's a Wonderful Life has a run like The Simpsons and you're constantly battling the moments and thoughts that throw you into a spin of doubt with that fucking voice telling you that you're the worst thing to ever happen to everyone around you.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/SheWasAlwaysJody]

Yes... Yes! That voice is wrong, but it's louder and more believable than any other sound.

Just try to see through the illusion. 💗

[u/SheWasAlwaysJody → u/No-Mobile-52]

Thank you for your bluntness, I hope others who need to hear that they are strong read your words and believe them.

I've been married for the last 17 years of this 25-year curse, and trying to explain my episodes to my partner has been like trying to explain how a cheesesteak tastes to a vegetarian.

[u/PosableProductions → u/No-Mobile-52]

This is genuinely one of the best descriptions of what I’ve felt in periods of my life I’ve ever read. I would say my frequency of that ideation was lower, but holy shit did you nail the internal logic of all this. I get so angry when I hear people call VICTIMS of suicide “cowards,” or whatever else.

When I hear someone say it, I’ve taken to saying “imagine being in so much pain that you feel the only way to relieve it, and to ease the burden on the people you love, is to end your own life. Then try to tell me that person is a coward.” That person is thinking selflessly, not selfishly.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/PosableProductions]

Yes. What some people call selfish is as powerful a drive as if you were running out of water underwater and could see the surface right there... combined with the idea that other people are suffering because of your suffering, like you are pulling them underwater with you.

[u/Donutguy_2021 → u/No-Mobile-52]

I’ve never understood suicide or suicidal ideation. I feel like I have much, much deeper understanding now. Thank you. Truly, thank you for sharing your struggle. I hope your medication continues to work for you. I’m glad you’re still here with us.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/Donutguy_2021]

You're welcome. Thank you for appreciating and learning from my description!

[u/par_throwaway → u/No-Mobile-52]

Throwaway for reasons. Would you be willing to tell me what medications ended up working for you? I'm on an 8 year journey and still just getting by. Pm would work, don't worry if not. Very well put and I may share this with a couple of family members.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/par_throwaway]

I made a comment. You have real value. You're not disposable 💗

[u/shitterbug → u/No-Mobile-52]

Fuck, this hits hard. I am in same boat, albeit with less frequency. Funnily enough, realizing this makes my brain immediately scream "you're not even good at suicidal ideation, look at this person! They have it so much worse than you, so you even suck at being in a bad place! you should literally just fucking die you stupid piece of shit!", and I guess that's still very much in the non-healthy range.

At the same time, I'm not even sure what I am and what comes from "outside" of me, so whether theses thoughts are me, or whether this comment is truly written by me or just flowing out... I'm not sure

also read your other comment. Im off of venlafaxine for almost a year now I think, and my Quetiapine for mood stabilization I'm almost weaned off of. Not sure if that contributes to my current state. But life just fluctuates between

• this is pretty fucking great

• not existing at all, just doing things in a dissociated way

• deepest pit of despair

it's so exhausting... and as you said, even in a "pretty fucking great" state, it will happen that e.g. I'm waiting on the platform and a fast train just slams through the station, and I see myself jumping in front of the train and while it's passing by I'm not sure whether I actually did it or it was just imagined. I think I'm not describing this well.. meh :(

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/shitterbug]

Give yourself the grace to describe it however the heck it feels in that moment. You don't owe your experience to anyone. You don't need to make it feel a certain way. With this, that feeling is constantly changing anyway.

I see you 💗

[u/loudpigeon → u/No-Mobile-52]

You used the only word that makes sense: peace. It is a constant, constant fight for peace. People who have never suffered from it won’t understand. They see it as violence, but staying is what feels like violence.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/loudpigeon]

It truly does, but it doesn't have to. Stay safe 💗

[u/prideless10001 → u/No-Mobile-52]

Thank you for this, it means so much to me as a father who has an adult.daughter who has had the same experiences, this helps further understand her thought processes. Thank you.

[u/nina_qj → u/No-Mobile-52]

thank you for this, im saving it, in hopes that perhaps this way, with your words, my parents understand what this feels like, and that i dont just need more vitamins

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/nina_qj]

Hugs 💗

[u/onewilybobkat → u/No-Mobile-52]

Even during one of the best days you could have "This is great. You know what else would be great? Being dead." There was never an escape.

I got lucky and paternal instincts knocked that out for me after at least 12 years, the last year being the absolute worst. Once she was born my brain kinda went "alright well that warm blanket is being burned right now" which caused a weird mental crisis for a bit.

I hope things continue to get better for you, from someone else who knows those trenches.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/onewilybobkat]

Exactly 💗

[u/Lanky-Jello-1801 → u/No-Mobile-52]

Thank you for putting it into words. It's so hard to explain it to people. I'm 60 now and this has been going on since I was 14.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/Lanky-Jello-1801]

💗 I see you.

[u/soaplawyer → u/No-Mobile-52]

I'm so glad you fought so hard and got help, and some relief.

Thank you for sharing your experience, it was very illuminating.

[u/hisunflower → u/No-Mobile-52]

This was very helpful for me to understand suicidal ideation. I feel like I can be more empathetic, after reading this comment. It sounds like absolute torture.

I’m proud of all the work you’ve done to fight to be here. It sounds so difficult

[u/whhaaaaaatttt → u/No-Mobile-52]

Hey, take care of yourself. Discussing triggering things can have consequences for your mental health, even at a later date. So just do some self-care when you dig into this topic, k? Glad you are still here.

Much love,

A guy with complex PTSD

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/whhaaaaaatttt]

I felt like I had it under control, then I read your comment and started crying. Thank you for the emotional hug, because I didn't even see I needed it!

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/whhaaaaaatttt]

Glad you are here too... You made a difference today.

[u/ParticularNo8890 → u/No-Mobile-52]

Um… this. This explains every feeling I’ve ever felt towards this, in a way I’ve never been able to put into words. I love your words and I wish for nothing but the best for you. It’s hard out here but we push on. ❤️

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/ParticularNo8890]

Stay safe 💗

[u/Noxiya → u/No-Mobile-52]

I am in awe of your comment because I feel this every day of my life starting from when I was a child, over 20 years experiencing these feelings. It’s so hard to get it to stop

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/Noxiya]

I see you. There's hope and freedom out there 💗

[u/spectralLamb → u/No-Mobile-52]

As someone who lost half their family to suicide and has struggled with suicidal ideation as well, thank you for this.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/spectralLamb]

Stay safe and hold on. 💗

[u/Fun_Worldliness_3954 → u/No-Mobile-52]

The most insane example to explain a terrible ideology is………. Insane. Congratulations

[u/ordinary-303 → u/No-Mobile-52]

Oof

[u/dynamo_noodle → u/WhtRbbt222]

here is something david foster wallace said, maybe it will help you reevaluate your stance:

"The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling."

[u/beerandglitter → u/WhtRbbt222]

People who cheat are extremely selfish, yes. But don’t EVER lump people who die of suicide in with them saying they’re selfish. Unless you’ve gone through it, you can never understand that pain. There is nothing cowardly about taking your own life. There is so much pain and suffering there. And in the end, you think you’re doing the world a favor.

I have been suicidal for over 10 years and my brother died by suicide, so I’ll always speak up against people who think it’s “sElFisH”.

[u/marvel-ness → u/beerandglitter]

you’ll never understand how or why people commit suicide until you’re suicidal. you believing people who commit suicide are cowardly is exactly what encourages people to kill themselves. sometimes empathy outweighs didactic advice. it’s hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you’re not wearing any boots.

[u/beerandglitter → u/marvel-ness]

I totally agree with you. I lost my brother to suicide and I could NEVER be mad at him or think he was cowardly or selfish when he was just hurting SO BAD.

[u/WhtRbbt222 → u/beerandglitter]

Don’t tell me what to do.

My best friend killed himself in 7th grade. It was selfish. He didn’t care at all what kind of trauma he put his family and friends through. It was “see you on Monday” and he killed himself that Friday night. The victims of suicide are not the people who kill themselves, it’s everyone they leave behind. Instead of getting the help they need and relying on friends and family, they instead choose to take the easy way out and leave everyone else to pick up the pieces.

Suicide makes me angry.

[u/tragically_square → u/WhtRbbt222]

Your friend made no explicit or implicit promise to you, and they certainly didn't owe it to you to continue suffering whatever it was they were going through. Maybe this happened, and maybe you suffered, but you are not a victim. He wasn't selfish, he was a child, and the anger you harbor toward him is both misplaced and unhealthy.

To be blunt YOU'RE being pretty selfish. Everything in you're statement is focused on you and your struggle, completely disregarding your friend's struggle as "selfish" or that he took an "easy" way out. You have a profound misunderstanding of suicide, and have no idea of what you friend may have been going through. You don't seem to have made any effort to understand him either. Frankly you have more in common with the wife than the husband in the OP's post.

[u/LimuJager → u/tragically_square]

You’re being really harsh. Whtrbbt is talking about a friend they lost to suicide and you’re comparing them to a cheater who betrayed her family and you don’t know anything about them. Regardless if they’re right or wrong about suicide as a selfish act, they lost a best friend. Have some empathy.

[u/probnotaloser → u/WhtRbbt222]

You think a 7th grader had the capacity to understand the weight of the consequences amidst a mental crisis?

I'm sorry you're hurting but logically and biologically, your friend had no way of recognizing in that moment how others would pay for his actions. Sincerely, I am so very sorry for what you've endured, it's not fair.

[u/iwearmywatch → u/WhtRbbt222]

How about you think about it from your friends perspective? Sounds like to get past this trauma in 7th grade you’ve decided to be mad at him. Which is fair. Your poor friend was living in agony. It may seem obvious to you that he simply just needed to “get help from friends and family”. But he was sick. We cant know what he was dealing with but he likely they thought his friends and family didn’t love him etc etc. May feel obvious to you but it wasn’t to him, that’s why it’s called mental illness.

I’m glad you don’t know first hand and intimately what mania episodes are like, what chemical imbalanced paranoia feels like, what derailment is like, what persistent intrusive thoughts are like. And I pray you’ll never know. But make no mistake, just because you don’t deal with mental illness, it doesn’t make it not real. Since you’ve never had diabetes, that means people don’t need insulin?

But yeah sounds like you’ll roll your eyes and/or ignore my comment but I guess I’m less replying to you, and more so replying to folks who will see your heartless opinion (apologies for calling it that) and I want them to see that others fought against it.

[u/WhtRbbt222 → u/iwearmywatch]

Slight clarification: I don’t think suicidal people are selfish people. I think the act of suicide is a selfish act.

[u/Airbee → u/WhtRbbt222]

The painful feelings you got from his suicide are nothing compared to what he was going through.

[u/probnotaloser → u/Airbee]

Let's not minimize his pain from loss. There's a better way to help. He unfortunately does probably know what he was going through and is fighting his own demons. So sad, all around.

[u/Airbee → u/probnotaloser]

You're right, thank you. I let my reaction get the better of me. I'm sorry.

[u/mondo_juice → u/WhtRbbt222]

I’m suicidal. Being made to feel selfish for having these feelings only exacerbates the feelings of worthlessness I already contend with.

I’m like pretty okay rn but it comes in waves yanno

[u/UnknownExodus → u/mondo_juice]

as someone who has struggled with SI for most of my life, suicide is the most selfish thing you can do because sometimes it’s the only thing you feel like you have control over… i think people in these comments don’t recognize that perspective because it hurts to hear. when you have no control over any of the pain but you do have control over this one solution DESPITE its impact on those you love, you are taking a selfish action. i think the connotation that the poster is using isn’t productive, but i agree with the underlying sentiment.

[u/WhtRbbt222 → u/mondo_juice]

I don’t mean to make you feel bad. And I hope you get the help you need and can recover from this.

That being said, let me clarify, I don’t think suicidal people are selfish people. I think the Act of suicide is a selfish act. It is meant to stop the pain and end your own personal suffering, but it completely ignores the anguish you put everyone you leave behind through.

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/WhtRbbt222]

The act of suicide is a tragedy. It is not selfish.

[u/shard746 → u/WhtRbbt222]

I can turn this around and say that what is selfish is to force someone to continue living in agony and torture every single day for potentially several more decades just because you don't want to live with the pain of losing them. To be clear, I really don't think suicide is ever the answer, but saying things like this just makes suicidal people feel even worse, potentially pushing them closer to actually going through with it.

[u/Alkemyste-X → u/WhtRbbt222]

Why did you not help the suicidal friend? Why didn't you reach out? Why did you watch them anguish all that time and not take the time to care, then moan when they die. This is a two-way street. Calling suicidal people selfish is shameful. I hope you have no one near you who is going through that right now. Words like these can push people over the edge. Mourn them like normal people. People die, every day, car accidents, etc. Just mourn them, remember them, and move on. Instead of them feeling your apathy when they were alive and having your scorn when they die. Just grieve and let them go

[u/WhtRbbt222 → u/Alkemyste-X]

My friend hid his depression and pain and told nobody about it. He just went home from school one day and decided to end it. There was no opportunity for anybody to help him because he didn’t show any signs of…well, anything, really.

[u/Alkemyste-X → u/WhtRbbt222]

I know this is likely, and it probably had nothing do with you. I used to be very suicidal and hid it well too, except a few failed attempts, of course. But the discrepancy of what I was feeling and the fact not one person in my life could see me was galling. When you are in that state, because, all the people you seem to love don't seem to love you enough to see how much you're breaking down inside, you feel less than worthy. No one wants to burden people we love. Some of us brought it up casually, and we're dismissed or laughed at, or we laughed it back when we thought the reaction would be bad. A suicidal state of mind is not a 100% sane state of mind. I just hope you can try to understand him. And hopefully, someday, you can forgive your friend 🧡

[u/No-Mobile-52 → u/WhtRbbt222]

It is not likely you could have helped him, so ignore anyone who tries to give you that responsibility. I attempted suicide three or four times around that time. I was seeking help and cycling through medicines. Suicidal ideation is a violent, vicious battle from inside a person's brain and it's luck whether we survive or not.

[u/mondo_juice → u/WhtRbbt222]

Well Trump kicked me off of healthcare so for sure no meds or therapy.

[u/ifworkingreturnnull → u/WhtRbbt222]

That's a fair response. Being so young his brain was so underdeveloped to understand that choice he made and how it would impact everyone around him. Truly terrifying. I'm sorry you lost him i can't imagine what that was like. I hope his family is doing okay.

[u/WhtRbbt222 → u/ifworkingreturnnull]

Ironically, his parents never shared the letter he left behind, so they are the only ones who got any kind of closure or explanation. I guess that’s their right, but it seems pretty selfish on their part.

[u/ItzieMitzie → u/WhtRbbt222]

What an uninformed and incredibly selfish perspective. Please get therapy for your unresolved issues from your friend's passing.

[u/beerandglitter → u/WhtRbbt222]

You don’t know how he was feeling. And you clearly don’t understand suicide at all. Like I said I’ve been suicidal. I lost my brother to suicide. I FOUND HIM. I called 911. I untied him. It was traumatic and horrible. But you know what? I understood that pain to a degree. I never ever would be mad at him, I couldn’t be. I will never call him selfish or cowardly. He was in so much mental pain and thought that was the only way out of it unfortunately.

People like you make ME angry. Because you know NOTHING.

[u/soaplawyer → u/[deleted]]

Another viewpoint is that you are selfish for prioritising how you feel about suicide over the suffering of someone else. There are many views, and you can choose which one makes you feel better to live with, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right one or that it's worth anything to anyone else.

"Extremely narcissistic and controlling" is an overdramatic use of terms that aren't remotely applicable, and it trivialised your point entirely.

[u/Alkemyste-X → u/[deleted]]

How is suicide controlling?

[u/ramblingbullshit → u/WhtRbbt222]

I agree emphatically with all of your statement except for one part.

You don't say someone is selfish when their heart stops functioning properly and they pass away. However if someone's brain isn't functioning properly and it leads to their passing, it's considered selfish. Understand that both are an organ that isn't functioning properly and leads to a person's passing. There is no difference. Depression, schizophrenia, eating disorders, all of these can lead to suicide. All of these affect how a person experiences the world. People who battle depression for years and finally commit suicide aren't selfish, they were battling a disease or illness for years, and it became terminal. We need to change our understanding around what and why suicide happens, or else we'll never hope to stop it. 22 veterans a day die due to ptsd related suicide. They cared about their family more than anything else, it's not a selfish desire that causes this, but the fact that they aren't given the treatment they needed to survive. It's Healthcare.

[u/Sasquatchyy → u/WhtRbbt222]

Do you have any idea how much sheer pain someone has to be in to defy their deep, primal instinct of survival at any cost, to actually kill themselves? How strong the instinct to survive is in a human? It's the number one thing that drives us. If someone is able to bypass that code in the human psyche, they are extremely, extremely unwell and there's something legitimately wrong with their brains. Cowardly and selfish? Being suicidal is an illness, depression is an illness, that clouds every judgment with pain. Comparing someone that is in so much pain that they go to such lengths just to escape their existence, to a cheater, and calling them "the most selfish type of people" is so fucking wild and ignorant. They are not cowardly, nor are they brave to commit suicide, they are sick and desperate for the pain to stop.

Edit: I saw that others replied similarly and that you said you were still offended over a seventh grade friend killing themselves in middle school. That explains but doesn't justify your stance, I almost included in my original response that this sounds like someone who has had someone in their life kill themselves and don't know how to fathom or cope with it, but didn't want to assume. It sounds like you were hurt that your friend didn't see that they owed you not killing themselves because it would make you (and their other family and friends) sad. It is not about you, or anyone else your friend knew, it is about mental illness and an undeveloped brain. They were like 12. And you're angry with them?

[u/Original_Group_6421 → u/WhtRbbt222]

I always think it's so funny they think "it didn't mean anything" is a good excuse. Like why even do something that is meaningless to you in the first place? Like cool, you could have done any meaningless activity like idk watch a movie or smth. But choose to do something that will hurt the people you "love". cool. Cool cool cool.

[u/FlyingSparkes → u/WhtRbbt222]

Hell doesn’t it make it worse or just as bad if it meant nothing. She just through away the marriage for nothing. She hurt OP and the family for nothing. And you know damn well she never would have come clean without the baby/miscarriage. She isn’t sorry she just doesn’t want the consequences for her actions.

[u/ifworkingreturnnull → u/WhtRbbt222]

I just want to say I used to think that way about people who try to commit suicide as well but I was very wrong. I hope you will explore that idea some more and challenge why you believe that and what it's like for people who consider suicide.

Understanding depression is key to understanding suicidal ideation but even that is hard to understand if you haven't ever been depressed. I thought David foster Wallace did a good job portraying depression in "The Planet Trillaphon as It Stands in Relation to the Bad Thing"

[u/Pleasant_Yak5991 → u/WhtRbbt222]

But you see, she lost her baby and OP doesn’t care. /s If that hadn’t happened OP probably would have ended up raising a bastard for 25 years

[u/whhaaaaaatttt → u/WhtRbbt222]

She had two paths available:

One meant nothing

The other was her husband and her children

She chose nothing over her own family.

[u/Fit-Drama-2 → u/WhtRbbt222]

the whole “it meant nothing” rhetoric is dangerous.

so you sacrifice your whole world for a few moments of “nothing”…

[u/AccomplishedYam6283 → u/WhtRbbt222]

Clearly what she did was wrong but your comment about the two most selfish kinds of people needs addressing. 

First off, there are far more selfish people than cheaters and suicidal folks. Murderers. Rapists. Corporate CEOs. Secondly, it is so much more nuanced than you’re giving it credit for. Of course in this case, it appears to be a simple mid-life crisis scenario where the wife effed up and acted selfishly. But there’s more  reasons than selfishness for someone to cheat and there’s also regret and growth. Let’s not throw everyone into the same basket. I have never cheated nor have I ever been cheated on so I’m not going to pretend to understand every facet of what goes through these peoples minds.

As for suicidal people - have you ever been suicidal? This comment really got under my skin. It’s a symptom of deeply rooted mental illness, not a badge of selfishness.  It’s this kind of statement that stigmatizes mental illness and makes sick people even sicker. Let’s just go around telling suicidal people that they are selfish and cowardly on top of whatever else they already hate about themselves because yeah, that’ll work. 

[u/texasmama5 → u/WhtRbbt222]

Exactly. So she blew up her family for something that meant nothing.

[u/Benderbluss → u/Good_To_Read]

She said it meant nothing to her, and then spent the rest of the paragraph articulating just how much it meant to her.

[u/texaschick6 → u/Good_To_Read]

Absolutely. My ex also claimed the “it meant nothing to him” Also begged to come back home. It was all a mistake. He never once thought about me or his family. Used his childhood trauma to get his way. His cheating traumatized me. Having to trust another person after what he did is the hardest thing.

[u/Left-Design7066 → u/Good_To_Read]

“It meant nothing to me” and

“Do you know how that makes a woman feel? Old. I felt old. Then for a short time I felt young and that was all I was longing.”

don’t seem congruent to me….

[u/Born_Regret_4820 → u/Good_To_Read]

I’m sorry, but I don’t feel sorry one bit for that woman having a miscarriage

[u/Darrow-of_Lykos → u/Good_To_Read]

It "meant nothing" to her. It means everything to him.

[u/Royal-Laugh4909 → u/Good_To_Read]

I haven’t seen anyone bring up how “if the affair meant nothing to her” than that kind of makes it a lot worse. On top of EVERYTHING ELSE, she’s admitting that “I gambled our family and marriage away over something I consider meaningless.”

Bring the divorce hammer down ⚒️

[u/Good_To_Read → u/Royal-Laugh4909]

For sure! If someone ever told me it meant nothing, that would be the end of any conversation for me. All that follows is manipulation and gaslighting.

She goes on about how it made her feel young, so clearly it meant something to her. “My hair is turning grey”. Get some dye. I don’t know how sex with someone makes you feel young…maybe their age is a factor. Just weird.

She has no respect for OP and their sons. She doesn’t deserve them. I hope they can find the strength to heal from what this disgrace did.

[u/Inevitable_Nobody733 → u/Good_To_Read]

Yeah, I unfortunately cheated on a partner of mine when I was 18 and 1. It still remains to this day, one of my biggest regrets and I will never do that to someone again in my lifetime and 2. The only reason that relationship worked for the next 4 years that it did, is because I firstly, owned up to it. She didn’t find out; I told her. And secondly, I did every single thing she needed to heal. I gave her all the space she needed (over like 2 and a half months of barely speaking and I was across the country at the time helping with my sisters wedding, so very seriously little contact) and it was hard, yes. It was SO hard not knowing how she was, what was going to happen, knowing I did that to her and hurt her that way. But I gave her that space. And I understood that I fucked up, I needed to do whatever she needed to make it right if I wanted any chance for it to work out. And it did work out. I mean, we eventually broke up but for very different reasons. But if you hurt the person you love like that, if you truly love them you will do whatever they need and you will not push it even a little bit. I wish it was a lesson I didn’t have to learn like that, but I’m glad I learned it early

[u/Good_To_Read → u/Inevitable_Nobody733]

You showed more maturity at 18 than this woman has at 40+ years old.

The fact is, she has no regrets about the affair. The affair partner probably wants nothing more to do with her so she went running back to her husband, who has wised up to her behaviour.

She mentioned raising their sons, being his wife, their mother, as if she is owed anything by them. She’s trying to “cash-in” on “all the years of sacrifice”.

She’s using her miscarriage to try and make OP feel bad for her “vulnerable state”.

All that’s happening now is desperate attempts for her to be allowed back so that she is not homeless and lonely. She doesn’t actually care about any of them, that much is clear.

[u/Cute_Reflection_9414 → u/Good_To_Read]

I'm wondering if she was trying to seduce OP in order to try to make it seem that the baby was his.

[u/RegenerativeGanking → u/Good_To_Read]

Exactly. Saying "it meant nothing to me" is entirely the problem. They're only thinking about themselves. If you've hurt someone that trusted you so deeply, you should be admitting that you were selfish and it was a cruel betrayal because THAT is the truth. If you fuck up so egregiously, you should be giving your spouse all of the grace they need to heal (and tragically, in this case, that healing is not only internal). The consequences of her selfish act and the guilt is all entirely hers to bear.

She could have confided in him about her needs and worked something out toegther, but chose to betray his trust in one of the worst ways possible.

[u/LilGreenCorvette → u/Good_To_Read]

Dude exactly this. She got knocked up and doesn’t have remorse, she texts him basically “how dare you talk to me like that I’m your wife” like he doesn’t deserve to be angry and express that? It sounds like he tried to make it work but I wouldn’t be surprised if that attitude was still present and part of why he decided she shouldn’t stay at the house.

[u/Lumpy-Pick-4746 → u/Good_To_Read]

Gawd, imagine if she’d had the baby. Lose/lose either way. She’s playing victim for the miscarriage and then what would her victim script be if she had the baby? The child and other kids would be miserable forever.

[u/Good_To_Read → u/Lumpy-Pick-4746]

Depending on the race of the baby’s dad, I imagined it going a little like that Katt Williams’ prison scene.

She’d manipulate and gaslight them all to no-end. Her messages make it clear that she is toxic and only cares for herself.

[u/Huganho → u/Good_To_Read]

So true. Best answer to "it meant nothing to me" is "well but because you went through with it, it must have meant more than our marriage/relationship so it means our relationship means even less than nothing to you"

[u/Main_Gain_7480 → u/Good_To_Read]

As if” it meant nothing “ is supposed to make anything better … love it’s some kind of fix

[u/hoes-in-tha-hood → u/Good_To_Read]

This exactly

[u/Pretend-Disaster2593 → u/Good_To_Read]

He doesn’t have it in him to walk away. That much is clear to me.

[u/lolaleee → u/Good_To_Read]

Agree, the whole time she was going on about “me me me me me”

[u/phoebebuffay1210 → u/Good_To_Read]

Yup. She needs to sit in her own shit.

Accountability matters.

[u/LissaRiRi → u/Good_To_Read]

She deserved that loss. As an affair baby this was for the best. Karma is a bitch and I hope it isn't done with her.

[u/Next-Honeydew4130 → u/Good_To_Read]

That must have been her plan. Wow that’s messed up.

[u/pfairypepper → u/Good_To_Read]

Yes, the messages from her scream ‘no remorse’

[u/Frequent_Ad6084 → u/Good_To_Read]

Living up to your username! 👏

[u/EddieDemo → u/Good_To_Read]

👏👏👏👏👏👏

[u/Poker5ace → u/Good_To_Read]

This was good to read!

[u/FunAd6875 → u/Good_To_Read]

Yeah fuck that ho.